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X2 on that, Kurt - fun lookin' day in there. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathcricket
In the pix below, the belayer appears to be in a poor (unanchored) position to catch a fall, but there is often more to the story. So? :haha:
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Did you fail to notice the Hulk-like arms of Andy? Your point is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
It would appear your point is valid. Andy never posts here--So your question might remain unanswered.Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
Just prior to this, I went side by side(un-aided) with a newer young guy, talking him through was a simple process.
The down climb, as you know--appears intimidating but the amount of quality features in the rock make it rather easy.
I'm going with---the rope was more of a "comfort" feature, rather than actually needed.
I know at least one of the people who had a top rope belay, had been through at least 3 other times un-aided.
Thanks for answering, Kurt. A few thoughts on Andy's "comfort" or "psychological" belay:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Sometimes a psycho-belay can be useful to get someone down a climb. But, the consequences of a fall should always be fully discussed and understood by all in such cases, and in no case* should the belayer be put at risk by the climber's fall.
In the pictured situation, a fall by the climber could be bad news for people at both ends of the rope, and therefore the entire group. A real belay (or spot...or other safety aid) should be provided whenever possible to folks who want it. In this case, a real belay could have been provided so I am curious what the group's communication was concerning the downclimb, safety, sequencing, etc.
Bottom line for those who may imitate stuff they see on the internet: The belay shown in the photos is not a real belay and not safe. Do not attempt.
I got some questions for you, Hank.
In a may west type canyon, with a floor at 8-12 feet, and a required stemming length of 40-50'.
At what point does a top rope belay fail to be effective and become more psychological?
Would the height of the belayer affect that distance?
Not condoning or chastising Andy's position, just asking rhetorically.
If there is a range of effectiveness, can this type of stance aid in a "slip" before it becomes a fall, in that distance?
If there was an actual fall--could the rope running through the belayers descending device, actually slow the fall and not put 100% of the downclimbers weight on the belayer in the EFFECTIVE distance?
I'm not sure of some of these questions but I see you are, can you elaborate?
I've still so much to learn....
oops--just saw where you pointed out--"a real belay could have been provided"
assuming by the word "real" you mean a belay that could safely cover the entire distance of this may west section, would you describe where this belay could be situated and how that location will protect the entire section in question. Thanks for your help.
I'm with Hank on this... "fake belay" creates danger for both downclimber and fake-belayer.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
The term is Mae West, after the lady: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_west
"In a mae west type canyon, with a floor at 8-12 feet, and a required stemming length of 40-50'. At what point does a top rope belay fail to be effective and become more psychological?"
Without the belayer anchored, it is dangerous from the start. It is sometimes possible for the belayer to find a suitable stance and need to be anchored into a separate anchor, but this is the exception, rather than the rule.
In Mae West canyons, we do not generally belay much of anything. People who cannot solo it should probably not be there.
Falls onto Belays happen very, very quickly. Males 15-45 think that they can catch it/belay it. They cannot. Danger to both parties. This is one reason why, in canyons, a rappel or handline is perhaps safer than a belay. A rappel or handline off a stance (meat anchor) puts lower forces on the anchor and has fewer surprises.
In Spry, there is usually a sling around that jammed stump - thus, an actual anchored belay WAS available - why was it not used? (answer: testosterone poisoning.)
"If there was an actual fall--could the rope running through the belayers descending device, actually slow the fall and not put 100% of the downclimbers weight on the belayer in the EFFECTIVE distance?"
Possible. And lightening could strike the pool below, creating a cloud of steam creating a gentle cushion for the faller to drop into. About the same probability... :naughty:
What you are talking about is a soft dynamic belay. A very proficient belayer, anchored to an anchor, and using a waist or shoulder belay could perhaps do a good job of this, but it would take a lot of practice. More likely, especially when using a device, the rope would essentially lock to a static belay; or the rope would start sliding (dynamic belay) but the belayer would be unlikely to regain control of the rope. In either case, in the situation shown, the belayer would be focused on not falling off the precarious perch, rather than mediating the fall for some theoretical soft landing.
"assuming by the word "real" you mean a belay that could safely cover the entire distance of this Mae West section, would you describe where this belay could be situated and how that location will protect the entire section in question."
Well, no. A real belay would be one that would be effective for at least a small portion of the downclimb. On this one, the intimidating part is getting over the edge and down the first 8 feet, and the person shown, in that position, tied back to the stump, could provide an effective belay for that section. After that, the belay becomes less effective, but might still prevent serious injury. In this case, a person hanging on the belay would tend to fall back into the tight crack which might be a better choice than falling straight down to the ground. Or not. Hard to say.
Glad nothing happened.
Tom who is not Hank.
:moses:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Still learning, Tom. So--from this anchored stump, what is the effective distance that can be protected? You mention that after 8' a belay is less effective, how much less for the additional 30+ feet? Also--the first 8' is the shallowest part of this may west.
Not sure where your testosterone poisoning comment comes from, I guess older gay men have differing views..(you made the bed)We can talk testosterone or gay, I'd say if one is accurate--so is the other!!! Or--we can talk of technical canyoneering, your choice..
(bickering removed)Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
The canyoneering part of your question is not really answerable. Each situation is different; each geometry must be considered on its own merit.
The question is, is the fall with a belay better than the fall without a belay?
At the end of that traverse, the belay would make things worse. If someone slips, say 5' above the ground, they would most likely naturally land safely (especially there, where soft, flat sand is the landing). With the belay, they would almost reach the ground, and then get tugged to the side at the last moment - not a good situation.
Tom, not Hank.
Quote:
In a may west type canyon, with a floor at 8-12 feet, and a required stemming length of 40-50'.
At what point does a top rope belay fail to be effective and become more psychological?
Quote:
So--from this anchored stump, what is the effective distance that can be protected? You mention that after 8' a belay is less effective, how much less for the additional 30+ feet?
Oldno may chew me out for asking, but personally I'm totally confused what is meant by the questions and what is asked above. :ne_nau: Is there a Mae West section in Spry (I haven't done Spry)? Or are we speaking of more than one canyon referring to Mae West in general? Is the question on how to belay a Mae West canyon? Other than perhaps a rim crew I haven't heard of anyone using a belay in a Mae West canyon.:ne_nau:Quote:
Also--the first 8' is the shallowest part of this may west.
Not worked up at all--just clarifying, you suggest testosterone was the reason for Andy's top belay, or pseudo belay if it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I'm suggesting that your testosterone leaning to the gay side, may be the reason for your casting stones in glass houses.
I do like--and agree with this answer though:
"The canyoneering part of your question is not really answerable. Each situation is different; each geometry must be considered on its own merit. "
So--there ya have it, Tommy
Ya see, I was the one who said I neither condone or chastise Andy's action but willing to learn.
And then ya go lobbing stones at those who can throw.
carry on.....
Not sure why I would chew you out for a legitimate question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
Yes, there is a nice little section in Spry that can be a 8-10 rappel, or you can stem it for 40-50'.
It is a nice introduction to may west canyons, complete with very good, albeit sometimes sharp traction on either side.
And I agree--A belay in a high stemming section is of little value, other than psychological.
(bickering removed)
In Spry - not really a Mae West, but a stimulating downclimb, that ends up being much easier than it looks. I think Kurt was trying to generalize the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
There is a belay often done in Sandthrax, mostly because there is a pin in place at the start of a silo. But the silo is not too difficult, not being as wide as it looks from that stance.
Tom
Ahh--said the douche who started the parade of insults.:roflol:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Carry on Tommy boy, I got so much more to add but I'll refrain for you,princess.....
Oh yea--technical canyoneering, seems somebody suggested that several posts back.
Keep slinging your pebbles, or not...
(bickering removed)
No problem, I can handle insults, princess, you on the other hand:lol8:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
wish I could hang around but I have to leave for a bit, catch up with you later...
I see.Quote:
In Spry - not really a Mae West, but a stimulating downclimb, that ends up being much easier than it looks. I think Kurt was trying to generalize the question.
That was why I was confused as to what is being referred to.
Haven’t done Sandthrax either, so wasn't familiar with that belay spot.
If interested, a Mae West slot refers to a canyon that pinches out to a few inches and that you must climb up and over “looking for the wide spots” (if you can rap into it as described above, it wouldn’t be a Mae West). It is referred to a Mae West slot because she (an actor) had a curvy body which is likened to the cross section of a slot canyon where you must climb up and find the wide spots (i.e. the breast and hips). It would be completely different than what you are (or seem to be-I haven't done Spry) referring to above.Quote:
Yes, there is a nice little section in Spry that can be a 8-10 rappel, or you can stem it for 40-50'.
It is a nice introduction to may west canyons, complete with very good, albeit sometimes sharp traction on either side.
Maybe I can shed some light onto why the belay was done. After my explanation maybe or not, you will decide it was the right thing to do even if it was not an effective/safe way to do it.
One of the hardest things as a parent is learning to let go. Andy, Cory, Sarah and I were last to come up to this down climb and before I could even say anything Spencer was half way across with Kurt. One of my biggest fears in these tight little canyons is stemming anything and falling. I have not done much of it and it scares the shit out of me more than rappelling. This past January I had a moment in one of the Leprechaun’s and thanks to trackrunner I did make it through. Kurt did a fantastic job of talking Spencer down this. However in my overactive imagination all kinds of scenarios were playing themselves out in those few minutes that Kurt and Spencer made their way successfully through this obstacle. I never said a word out loud so Spencer could hear my fear but Andy heard my mumblings.
I was next. What I should have done was declined let the other two ladies go, taken a walk back down the canyon and rid myself of the images in my head. Pulled myself together and come back to do the down climb. But I didn't I started off without the belay and couldn't do it. Andy new I was perfectly capable and had just psyched myself out. So he offered the belay a placebo if you will. As soon as the rope was on my belt I relaxed enough to make the down climb. Not at any point was I ever in need of it. In fact not long after I got started Andy told me to unhook it, and he told me at this point the belay is doing you no good. You can see Cory doing the same thing in her photo, she did take it off further out but that is only because she moved through it faster than I did and Andy didn't get her attention until that point. Faced with this same down climb again I wouldn't even hesitate.
As pointed out the belay is not safe if a fall happened, especially if you are at the end of the down climb were it widens out. I don't think the intent was to belay a fall. More help me get to where I felt comfortable doing the down climb. I couldn't have used a hand line as I needed hands, feet back and ass against the walls. A rappel was offered and I declined. I didn't want to rappel because I want to learn to down climb. The start on that was a bit awkward, narrow and I was having a hard time figuring out how to get down so that my feet were on one wall pushing me into the other wall. I started a couple times and the way Andy had me set up was able to pull up on the rope a bit to help me back up, I was kind of getting myself stuck. Where he was standing he had more freedom to help me then if he was anchored…I think. Anyway, once I was past the narrower section where I kept getting stuck I was fine, felt secure and Andy had me unhook the rope.
And just like that, Andy and crew enter the "Very unsafe and dangerous, do not hang out with these guys" club. Poor Hummingbird too, on her first trip! Surprised she didn't die. :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Welcome Andy and crew to the "Unsafe Adventurers Club" or "B-Team", please wipe your feet off and leave your helmets at the door.
I actually have a video of someone rapping that area, let me put it up. After some discussion we (our group) decided it was easier to stem it and the rest of the noobs on our trip did so. But we did use a guinea pig to test out the rap. I don't see any problem with the belay Andy used personally. It's a skinny crack and while he could not arrest a complete fall, one is very unlikely to occur. About the same odds as a lightning strike I guess, although math isn't my strong point. By simply pulling on the rope he could take 20-50lbs off the "stemmer" which would help them retain traction/friction. Which is little danger to him and beneficial to a new person. So a win/win. And it does give new people a sense of safety, which is really all they need to get over the 1st 5 foot section which is the only hard part. Once they are down in the crack they see it's not so bad.
I say "carry on" and ignore the armchair quarterback critiques. As our older group begins retirement, they will become less relevant as time goes on, and less threads will get distracted into gay segways.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYFwqPPQCh8