Zion Permit System

Nice reports! Rangers checking permits..... :frustrated: Thank you rangers for "assisting" in my outdoor/wilderness experience with a police contact. It really makes me feel at home in the "back country" to be asked to fish out my permit. Again I ask, why the contact if a ranger only sees six people? What are they doing wrong that would warrant getting stopped and asked for a permit? It is legal to do canyons just like it is legal to fish. What gives rangers the right to assume "illegal" and ask for a permit. I keep expecting them to say with a german or russian accent, "May I see your papers." They can't do that while I am driving unless I commit a crime or I look like I am13. Must do some research on this one day. :frustrated: My current response is to put my permit in the top part of my pack and get it good and wet as soon as possible and maybe even dump a little Gatoraid on it so when asked I can hand them a wet wad of paper with pretty red gatoraid on it. Ooooo, am I mischevioius or what! :haha:

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Nice reports! Rangers checking permits..... :frustrated: Thank you rangers for "assisting" in my outdoor/wilderness experience with a police contact. It really makes me feel at home in the "back country" to be asked to fish out my permit. Again I ask, why the contact if a ranger only sees six people? What are they doing wrong that would warrant getting stopped and asked for a permit? It is legal to do canyons just like it is legal to fish. What gives rangers the right to assume "illegal" and ask for a permit. I keep expecting them to say with a german or russian accent, "May I see your papers." They can't do that while I am driving unless I commit a crime or I look like I am13. Must do some research on this one day. :frustrated: My current response is to put my permit in the top part of my pack and get it good and wet as soon as possible and maybe even dump a little Gatoraid on it so when asked I can hand them a wet wad of paper with pretty red gatoraid on it. Ooooo, am I mischevioius or what! :haha:

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Dang...I'm so sorry to burst your bubble! Bonnie is the Chief Ranger at Zion. It's great to see her mingling with the crowds. She is a super nice person and has a job to do. No mal-intent on her behalf. I'm quite glad she asked for a permit!

I'll be heading into Heaps tomorrow morning because of the permit system. I really wonder how the folks that are 1 day overdue now will feel about the permit system if they are injured or stuck? I truly hope that they just walk out under their own power, but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Nice reports! Rangers checking permits..... :frustrated: Thank you rangers for "assisting" in my outdoor/wilderness experience with a police contact. It really makes me feel at home in the "back country" to be asked to fish out my permit. Again I ask, why the contact if a ranger only sees six people? What are they doing wrong that would warrant getting stopped and asked for a permit? It is legal to do canyons just like it is legal to fish. What gives rangers the right to assume "illegal" and ask for a permit. I keep expecting them to say with a german or russian accent, "May I see your papers." They can't do that while I am driving unless I commit a crime or I look like I am13. Must do some research on this one day. :frustrated: My current response is to put my permit in the top part of my pack and get it good and wet as soon as possible and maybe even dump a little Gatoraid on it so when asked I can hand them a wet wad of paper with pretty red gatoraid on it. Ooooo, am I mischevioius or what! :haha:

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Dang...I'm so sorry to burst your bubble! Bonnie is the Chief Ranger at Zion. It's great to see her mingling with the crowds. She is a super nice person and has a job to do. No mal-intent on her behalf. I'm quite glad she asked for a permit!

I'll be heading into Heaps tomorrow morning because of the permit system. I really wonder how the folks that are 1 day overdue now will feel about the permit system if they are injured or stuck? I truly hope that they just walk out under their own power, but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

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And I forgot to mention...Bonnie didn't stop to check our permit...she just noticed that I was with a group of folks and I hollered to her. She stopped to see how we were. I'm guessing that you've had some bad experiences? So sorry that this may be the case and hope one day you may be less harsh on yourself Scott.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

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:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I'll take bets on that.... I bet they are NOT happy with the permit system that probably caused them a late start, didn't allow them to pick their ideal day and inconvenienced them in a dozen other ways..... I bet the permit system is responsible for more rescues than it helps with....

Put all the honey you want on that biscuit.... I'm still not biting.....

And FYI.... the permit system is not a rescue system.... a check in person should be your responsibility and not that of the park...

:soapbox:

Good luck with the SAR, I hope all goes well.....

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

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:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I'll take bets on that.... I bet they are NOT happy with the permit system that probably caused them a late start, didn't allow them to pick their ideal day and inconvenienced them in a dozen other ways..... I bet the permit system is responsible for more rescues that it helps with....

And FYI.... the permit system is not a rescue system.... a check in person should be your responsibility and not that of the park...

:soapbox:

Good luck with the SAR, I hope all goes well.....

:cool2:

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Thanks Shane, but you are wrong. They got a permit for an overnight starting Saturday. Two other groups had permits for one day hike thrus starting on sunday. One of the groups that had a one day permit for sunday has already been contacted and reported seeing the missing party in Phantom Valley Sunday morning? Hmmmmmmmm? Go figure? Why did the one day groups make it out in the time they had planned, yet the so called "Started Late" because of the permit system party get only as far as Phantom Valley in one day, get passed by the parties that started hiking 24 hours after they began, and yet are considered overdue by you because of the permit system? Oops! You lose the bet. You can pay up next time we meet.

Thanks....I'll hope the SAR doesn't happen, but if it does I appreciate your well wishes!

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

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:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I'll take bets on that.... I bet they are NOT happy with the permit system that probably caused them a late start, didn't allow them to pick their ideal day and inconvenienced them in a dozen other ways..... I bet the permit system is responsible for more rescues that it helps with....

And FYI.... the permit system is not a rescue system.... a check in person should be your responsibility and not that of the park...

:soapbox:

Good luck with the SAR, I hope all goes well.....

:cool2:

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Thanks Shane, but you are wrong. They got a permit for an overnight starting Saturday. Two other groups had permits for one day hike thrus starting on sunday. One of the groups that had a one day permit for sunday has already been contacted and reported seeing the missing party in Phantom Valley Sunday morning? Hmmmmmmmm? Go figure? Why did the one day groups make it out in the time they had planned, yet the so called "Started Late" because of the permit system party get only as far as Phantom Valley in one day, get passed by the parties that started hiking 24 hours after they began, and yet are considered overdue by you because of the permit system? Oops! You lose the bet. You can pay up next time we meet.

Thanks....I'll hope the SAR doesn't happen, but if it does I appreciate your well wishes!

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Well....You don't owe me on the bet. They just came out. 3 days in Heaps because of a flawed permit system that caused them a late start! Thanks for the well wishes.

"being served"

Someone (who I wont name to avoid dragging into this discussion) brought up an interesting scenario.

Do you need to have a permit to stand next to a car? Do you need to have a permit to hike with a backpack wearing a wetsuit? last I checked - no, you don't.

I have problems with the permit system in general - using the express system makes it a lot easier - but it could be enhanced if walk-ons were made available after a certain time 2 days in advance to express people.

The problem I have is with them being checked for the permit whenever they feel like it. Seriously? Just because I have a backpack on and I'm at my car I'm a suspected criminal?

The rangerettes at the top of the tunnel no longer check for permits for pine creek because they aren't law enforcement rangers - which has improved things a bit...

<rant>
So when a ranger asks you for your permit when you are at your car, what if you just say "No thank you. Right now I'm just standing here and that doesn't require a permit. If you see me doing something that does require a permit, I'll be more than happy to assist you in your legal responsibilities and show you such a permit."

The other question is... When you are being questioned by a ranger to determine if you need a citation - what happened to your right to remain silent?
</rant>

And bo - I have the upmost respect for the SAR teams and the quality of the teams in Zion. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

"being served"

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Wow. No wonder we had a late start into Spry. We were damn near killed by a flash flood because of that permit line. (Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration... but it DID start raining on us...)

I was in a Target the other day buying a thing of tooth paste. There were 4 people in line in front of me - so they opened another register and I was able to quickly buy my $1.25 item.

Just saying...

IMO... I think an atm system could be helpful in this case. come up to a touch screen computer where you'll be able to see if there is a spot open on a canyon or not. if there is you put your credit card in and buy the permit and it prints it off. :ne_nau:

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Originally Posted by theking648

IMO... I think an atm system could be helpful in this case. come up to a touch screen computer where you'll be able to see if there is a spot open on a canyon or not. if there is you put your credit card in and buy the permit and it prints it off. :ne_nau:

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Never gonna happen. How would the system shame you and look at you in a condescending way if it was late in the day?

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

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Originally Posted by theking648

IMO... I think an atm system could be helpful in this case. come up to a touch screen computer where you'll be able to see if there is a spot open on a canyon or not. if there is you put your credit card in and buy the permit and it prints it off. :ne_nau:

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Never gonna happen. How would the system shame you and look at you in a condescending way if it was late in the day?

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Give it the mournful whistle R2D2 made when Han and Luke were stuck out overnight on Hoth.

There is always hope.... Teton NP had a crappy climbing permit system similar to the crappy canyoneering permit system in Zion. Teton eventually discovered they were causing more problems than they were solving and scrapped the climbing permits (you still need a permit in Teton to camp overnight).

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

"being served"

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Good point! I do remember years ago when Mystery Canyon had a much larger quota (or no quota at all for that matter); Lets see? I think there was a bottleneck at the last two drops. The rain came. I think there were 30 or so folks (3 of whom were employees at my work) wishing they could leave? So...does it make sense to make a free for all "we own the park" system? You know..that would be fine. I know many others do. I never said the permit "system" is the best system. What exactly do you suggest Tom? Get rid of the permits? I know Shane and many others think this would be great. The way I see it.....you want to get rid of the "backcountry experience"? get rid of permits and you'll see everyone you ever wanted (and not wanted) to see (now thats a true backcountry experience). Tell me Tom...what is the resolve? Should there be 18, 24, 36, 48, 96, unlimited...how many should be allowed?
No...I never said the permit system is perfect, nor will it ever be. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what the perfect system is? Can't you get a permit for a canyon as a walk in the day before? I think some permits are available online? You couldn't get one of the online permits? Come the day before then and get it. Oh I see! You can't get there the day before, so you must wait until the window opens that morning. So open the window at midnight? Well...I went to the window Sunday morning at 7AM and waited until it opened to get my Pincreek Permit. There were 5 people in front of me. the guys in the front of the line had been there since 4AM to pick up permits. They got them . If the window had opened at midnight...I'm sure they would have been there. How would you have felt If you had shown up at 1AM and there were 6 folks ahead of you. You wanted a simple walk-in for Mystery. The group in front of you pulled them all when the window opened at Midnight. Your backup was Imlay..the next group pulled those permits....hmmmm? what next? I really don't have a clue? Enlighten me please?

I went 5 years ago and climbed the NE Buttress on Whitney. I got a permit 4 months in advance. It took some planning and re-arranging of my schedule, but it was an awesome experience. I could have imagined 9 fixed ropes on the climb to accomodate the unlimited quota of climbers, but it was much more enjoyable to fix my own.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I'll be heading into Heaps tomorrow morning because of the permit system.

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I would have been heading into Heaps last Saturday but was aced out of it because of the permit system. Yes. That is a fact. Packs packed and two buddies already in Zion to get a permit. I was buying food and planning on attending either the Whiptail grill event or the Potluck. Then, I got the call to stay home because the permits were all taken. Priceless system (sarcasm intended).

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I really wonder how the folks that are 1 day overdue now will feel about the permit system if they are injured or stuck? I truly hope that they just walk out under their own power, but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!

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I always leave my plans with my wife. She is plenty worried and will take care of business if I am over due. Others I go with do the same. I don't rely on the park permit system at all for any part of my enjoyment. It gets in the way with the lines, late starts and racing from Northern Utah to get to the permit window before they close. I even got a ticket two years ago trying to get a red permit to "get" to park my truck at the grotto to get a very early start for Heaps. I just don't buy most of the logic behind the system and the utter lack of logic behind the limits. MHO

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

And I forgot to mention...Bonnie didn't stop to check our permit...she just noticed that I was with a group of folks and I hollered to her. She stopped to see how we were. I'm guessing that you've had some bad experiences? So sorry that this may be the case and hope one day you may be less harsh on yourself Scott.

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Harsh on myself???? :haha: That comment rubs me wrong. Here is why. I am sure Bonnie is a great person. I don't hate anyone and I have always tried to be polite, sometimes direct but never disrespectful to the rangers. I know they have a job and a difficult one at that. Bad experience you ask? Yes. I have moaned about a couple before on this site and the Yahoo site. Have I ever been cited? NO. Have I ever been busted for doing anything wrong in Zion? NO. The most recent bad experience was a result of some junior detectives trying to put two and two together and come up with six. The logic behind them stopping me and getting on me was because of the town I live in and the fact that others from my town, not related to me/ my group, were in the Subway on the same day. I knew them but I was not part of them. I didn't hike with them nor did I drive with them. So, no, if you were inferring with your last comment that I have been in trouble, that is not correct. No need to be harsh on myself as I have done nothing wrong. No guilt, therefore no reason to be harsh on "myself". It is simply the system and the enforcement of it that drives me nuts. Yes, I am very critical or harsh on the system.

Now Bo, I respect you immensely. I admire your SAR experiences. I want to buy stuff from your store. I have thanked you for what you do a couple of times before and I thank you again now. THANKS BO. I mean that sincerely. But you have to understand that you are different from me, Joe Mapleton, when it comes to the Park service. The inference and the assumptions of the rangers when they come in contact with you and me is different. Sorry to rant and derail the thread (split it??) but you kinda called me out and you also defended the system. I think differently about the system. Friends? :2thumbs:

[b]The Zion Permit System is your typical bureaucratic train wreak

[quote=Iceaxe]has created a large group of rogue canyoneers who don

My group had a recent unpleasant run in with the park rangers about a month ago just after we had completed The Subway. We did the hike from the top down leaving one car at the bottom and taking two cars up to the top. There were 6 of us in our group.

The first 4 of us had just finished the hike out and reached our car in the parking lot. We were in the process of taking off our backpacks and shoes when a ranger pulled in got out of his truck and came right to us. He asked to see our permit and I very politely pulled it out and gave it to him. He then went on his way and it was no big deal at this point. After the ranger got done checking all the cars in the lot and was getting back in his SUV the other two straglers of our group came strolling down the trail to the parking lot. The ranger jumped out of his car and headed toward them. At this point I yelled, "Its cool they are with us" but the ranger asked to see our permit again...kind of a pain in the A#@ but no big deal, so I showed him the permit again.

By this time the 4 of us that were waiting at the top were sitting on our cooler in the shade drinking a celebritory beer as we waited for our other two hikers to arrive. After the ranger checked our permit for the second time he noticed us drinking beers and now said that he was going to need to see all of our ID's. WHO THE HELL CARRIES THEIR ID THROUGH THE SUBWAY or any other canyon for that matter?? I had my ID because my car was at the bottom but no one else had their ID's. I thought he would check my ID and see that I was 26 and give the rest in our group the benefit of the doubt on being over 21....everyone who was drinking a beer was 25 or older. Nope, the ranger pulled out a pen and paper and took down everyones information and told us to wait there until he had ran all of our info. This took him about 10 or 15 minutes to do, which sucked because by this point we were all done with our beers and ready to hit the road back to our cars at the top. He finally came back and said we were all good, but he then hounded us about not driving if we had been drinking. Two guys in our group don't drink so we told him they would be driving to get our car at the top. Problem is we had two cars at the top so one of us that had had ONE DAMN BEER was going to have to drive a car down....not a big deal it was one utah strength beer.

That ranger finally left us alone, but by the time we had loaded up the gear in the car and the 3 people headed up to get the cars were getting ready to pull out another ranger pulled in and made us show him our permit once again!!! After this harassment they were finally able to pull out and go get the cars at the top.

After sitting at the bottom for about 15 or 20 mins two of our cars finally pulled into the parking lot. We asked where the third car was and they said the ranger that had first talked to us, asked to see our permit twice, and then harassed us about the beer had passed them on their way down and flipped around and pulled over the guy that had had the one beer. 20 minutes later the third car finally pulled into the parking lot. He said the ranger had made him do a complete field sobriety test, and then breathalized him. He passed everything with flying colors.

This was a shitty way to end a great day of hiking the subway. The rangers treated us like criminals from the moment they encountered us, and we had done nothing wrong. We had drove down and gotten the permit just before the permit desk closed the night before our trip(very inconvienent), we carried it with us throught the canyon, and showed it to them 3 damn times.

Not fun, but we didn't let it ruin our day....still had a great time in the subway. Sorry for the rant.

Same parking lot where I received the most grief I speak of. Similar treatment sans the beer issue. Lovely. :frustrated: Other bad encounters were at the end of the Narrows.