Canyoneering death in the Subway

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

NPS Morning ReportWednesday, September 26, 2012Zion National Park (UT)
Man Dies In Canyoneering Accident

Hosobuchi was using a Blue Water VT below his rappel device and attached to his leg loop as a backup. Hosobuchi began his rappel when he flipped upside down, possibly due to the weight of his pack. It appears that when Hosobuchi inverted, the VT slid into the rappel device and jammed it.

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Hell of a tragic accident.

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The BlueWater VT prusik was designed in conjunction with Rich Carlson of the American Canyoneering Academy specifically for canyoneering applications. A super tough and heat resistant Technora aramid sheath covers durable nylon core strands. Bartacked with our custom Technora thread for superior strength. Available exclusively from Canyons and Crags. Diameter: 8mm

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Not that I'd care to get a knife anywhere near something like this, but, I've found that some of these materials, versus nylon, are really hard to cut. And, this VT rig is 8mm too. Thick. Probably not easy to cut free if need be. Hmmm. Not sure how viable that would have been if the autoblock had been 6mm or 7mm nylon...

I carry the Sterling hollow block thing for prusiking. Handy (have used to ascend a fixed rope). I think it'd be a bummer to try to cut off the rope. Maybe not possible without chopping the lead line.

What a horrible accident. I can't imagine...heavy sigh...(X 100).

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

I carry the Sterling hollow block thing for prusiking.

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NOT suitable for that application.

With no core, once somewhat used, the Hollow Bloc has a very unknowable strength. We had one break in practice when one of our guides was using it as a prusik (fell to the floor, like 2 feet, no harm no foul).

So I would NEVER use them for prusiks. Very dangerous.

Used as an autobloc, they are below the rappel device and only experience "brake-hand" level of forces, not bodyweight.

Lack of general usefulness is a big reason ZAC converted to VT Prusiks... in the never-ending quest for the perfect autobloc cord. :naughty:

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

I think ZNP did a good job of manipulating the Backcountry Management Plan to cut off any meaningful discussion of guiding in the backcountry.

"Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate."

1. The Park assessed demand for guided trips by surveying non-guided backcountry users, and found no demand. Not a surprise. (As a similar example, I have surveyed my Sierra Club friends, and find little support for Mr. Romney; therefore there is little support for Mr. Romney?);
2. The Park DECLARED that existing use levels in the backcountry were "high". They presented no evidence to support this claim. It is a declaration. I don't find use level in the backcountry to be high - in all but a few highly-sought after routes, use in the backcountry of Zion is extremely low.

In the Backcountry Plan, when the 'survey' supports the Park position, the Park makes it clear that 'the users voted' that way, as if it was a matter of tallying the votes. When the Park position is contrary to how the users 'voted', then the Park ignores the votes. So, the Park is very willing to use survey results as an EXCUSE for taking a particular action, but it is naive to claim that the Park takes ANY action because it represents the opinion of the populace. The Park does what it darn well pleases, and finds and excuse, however flimsy, whereever it can.

Tom

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Tom

I am with you.

If you can hire a guide to take you up the Nose on El Capitan in Yosemite National Park, The Grand Teton in the Grand Teton National Park, or to the summit of Mt Rainer National Park, why shouldn't there be commercial guiding in Zion National Park?

This is really a policy that does not favor members of the public and their ability to enjoy the back country, especially visitors who live far from canyon country. Finding the subway without someone who has perviously been in the canyon is intimidating for example.

If the concern is that a guide service will use up all the permits, one can use the rule that is applied to the Wave: the client has to get their own permit and a license guide can accompany the client. (Obviously there are many other potential solutions).

Some of the benefits of having professional guides is modeling low impact canyoneering, anchor maintenance, increased surveillance in the canyon by requiring guides to carry appropriate radios.

Unfortunately, in my life time, I don't think I will ever see this in Zion National Park and I think that is a shame.

Ken

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Don't forget all the commercial guiding in rafts in the Grand Canyon and other NP rivers. I've enjoyed both commercial and private rafting trips and I would not want to see the commercial ones banned.

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Not banned, but commercial trips do have an unfair advantage. Paying clients should have the same chance/waiting list (which has been mostly done away with) as private parties. To make it fair, commercial clients should have to get their own permits on trips that have big waiting list/lotteries.

My dad was on the waiting list for many, many years until they started charging to keep your name on there (which policies have again been modified). However, if you have thousands of dollars you can just sign up with a commerical tour immediately and and they are given preference (since they were hogging most of the permits). Not fair at all. Guided clients and private boaters should have equal chances for permits. It would be fair then.

I have been using my scrap pieces of the imlay 6mm pull cord for prusiks. It is slick at first but once it's broken in a little bit it seems to work well

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Originally Posted by 2065toyota

I have been using my scrap pieces of the imlay 6mm pull cord for prusiks. It is slick at first but once it's broken in a little bit it seems to work well

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The Imlay 6mm cord is designed to be hard and stiff. Other 6mm cord will work better as a prusik.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

NOT suitable for that application.

With no core, once somewhat used, the Hollow Bloc has a very unknowable strength. We had one break in practice when one of our guides was using it as a prusik (fell to the floor, like 2 feet, no harm no foul).

So I would NEVER use them for prusiks. Very dangerous.

Used as an autobloc, they are below the rappel device and only experience "brake-hand" level of forces, not bodyweight.

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Whoa...really? Really? Mine seems burly, and, I've had two of them.

Sterling says:

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The Hollow Block is a unique sewn prusik or climb heist made from our RIT 900™ cord. This hollow braid cord is made of 100% aramid fiber, giving it added strength, durability and gripping power on rope 7mm and larger. It is sewn with Sterling’s proprietary sewing pattern.

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Strength is listed as 14kN.

Were you guys using older models, or, prototypes? They totally sell this thing for Prusiking with no restrictions.

Broke, as in, the sewing failed or the thing broke in the body?

Really?? Have you talked to Sterling? "Very dangerous"? Yikes.

And, I've jugged with it (in combo with a Gri Gri). Worked great.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Whoa...really? Really? Mine seems burly, and, I've had two of them.

Sterling says:



Strength is listed as 14kN.

Were you guys using older models, or, prototypes? They totally sell this thing for Prusiking with no restrictions.

Broke, as in, the sewing failed or the thing broke in the body?

Really?? Have you talked to Sterling? "Very dangerous"? Yikes.

And, I've jugged with it (in combo with a Gri Gri). Worked great.

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Broke as in broke in the body.

Admittedly, a well-used one. I can see them being 14kN when new, but...

Technora abrades against itself. So, after a lot of use, a fair amount of those technora fibers are cut.

I would perhaps trust them when new, but it is hard to say when "when new" changes to the untrustworthy "no longer new".

I am surprised they say that.

Tom

The Hollow Block is made with Sterling RIT, which is intended as a personal escape rope, single use only. Fireman use it to bail out of burning buildings. Aramid fibers have high melting points. In fact, Technora doesn't really melt; it starts to char around 950 degrees. Flex endurance issues don't matter if you're only going to use it once. Not sure why Sterling agreed to use this cord for an item that is expected to be used many times.

VT has a nylon core, so even if the aramid sheath fails you will still have the strength of the core to get you to the ground.

It should be noted that we use the Hollowblocs until they are fully used up.

Pic of some used ones - "close to retirement".

I doubt Mr. Cabe would consider using one of these as a prusik.

Tom

Wow, those are pretty chewed up. My thought is that a well set Prusik doesn't really slip much, while an autoblock slips by design, location and use.

Yeah, mine looks pretty new.

Good head's up, though. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Yeah, mine looks pretty new.

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Once it goes beyond "very light fuzzing" and shows any sign of concentrated wear, however slight, I'd ditch it. Actually, i'd just ditch it now (unless used only for autobloc).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPv8E...ature=youtu.be

Here is a video of the spot taken 12 days prior to the fatality.

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Originally Posted by summitseeker

Here is a video of the spot taken 12 days prior to the fatality.

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Nice. That clarifies quite a bit.

Note, this is not "Keyhole Falls". Keyhole Falls is the rappel prior to this, where you rappel across the waterway from a small arch (the Keyhole). Some people downclimb through the Keyhole. When upclimbing, the easiest route is through the Keyhole.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

The Imlay 6mm cord is designed to be hard and stiff. Other 6mm cord will work better as a prusik.

Tom

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Structurally are there any problems with it? Just curious because we soon some practicing of climbing ropes and every person preferred the pull cord. I don't know exactly what we were comparing it to but they were pre seen cords for prusiks or autoblocks. I always had to use 4 wraps but I'm 200 lbs and it didn't slip and released well. I thought it would be better to use them since that rope isn't designed to absorb water. Thanks for the input

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Originally Posted by summitseeker

Here is a video of the spot taken 12 days prior to the fatality.

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Thanks for posting the video. :2thumbs:

FWIW: The video calls this waterfall "Keyhole Falls", which is incorrect. Keyhole falls is the rappel before this with the small arch (the keyhole).

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Note, this is not "Keyhole Falls". Keyhole Falls is the rappel prior to this, where you rappel across the waterway from a small arch (the Keyhole). Some people downclimb through the Keyhole. When upclimbing, the easiest route is through the Keyhole.

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Leroyed.... :angryfire:

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Originally Posted by 2065toyota

Structurally are there any problems with it? Just curious because we soon some practicing of climbing ropes and every person preferred the pull cord. I don't know exactly what we were comparing it to but they were pre seen cords for prusiks or autoblocks. I always had to use 4 wraps but I'm 200 lbs and it didn't slip and released well. I thought it would be better to use them since that rope isn't designed to absorb water. Thanks for the input

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Hmmm, interesting...

No, no structural issue.

I don't use prusiks much, so I am not really "in" on the details, but I thought generally people like a softish prusik cord so it grabs well. My 6mm pull cord is quite hard; and maybe it works well because it does not grab all that well. You can always add wraps for more bite, while often the problem with prusiks is getting a consistent release.

Hmmm.

Tom

I don't know why so many people persist with prusiks as a friction knots...
There are myriad other knots that grab more readily, release much more predictably, don't bind, and are faster to tie. All equaling greater safety. The prusik has its place in rescue belays but I don't believe in it for personal safety applications...

What are these other knots?