Super Amazing Slots?

mdd, I’d posit there’s another argument for “secret” canyons. Preservation of exploration. An example comes to mind (please anyone correct me if I have my history wrong). Canyoneers, including some on this site, started “exploring” what is called the North Wash area 10-12 years ago. I think a number of folks had a hand in this, and I suspect a lot of fun was derived from the whole process (not to mention a few classic stories came into being). But… as it turns out (if my understanding is correct), Steve Allen and friends descended many of these canyons 15-20 years ago, they just didn’t publicly throw out the beta. So thanks to their actions, a whole new generation of explorers had a wonderful experience waiting for them.

In this day and age of FB, Google+, Bogley, Yahoo, etc., etc. I doubt “secret” can happen anymore. It would take a concerted effort by an entire community. People just don’t work that way. Oh well.

-john

Ps. I put “secret” in quotes because I don’t believe there is such a thing as secret canyons with current technology. They are all there in Google earth for anyone to see.

[EDIT to add a couple things I forgot to mention: NW is an ideal area to be fully documented - large variety of canyons in a compact area, close to a road. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. mdd, didn't mean to be confrontational, I think your points are spot on. Just think there are additional reasons for keeping quiet about places. Last, I may try to convince people that keeping a place under the radar makes sense, but I'm not interested in doing so through any kind of arm twisting. People ought to do what they think is right in this regards.]

I was very impressed by what I saw to be Mike's (MDD) efforts in his Ouray book to engage the various stakeholders in the community and inform & inspire canyoners to respect the various concerns & interests. Bravo Mike & thanks for helping me to understand how to explore Ouray sustainably!

Having said that, the concept of an 'exploration preserve' sounds like a wonderful & worthwhile thing to me. The many challenges involved with making it work are things I have no brilliant suggestions for, but the idea seems worth working on.

Cheers,

Wayne

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Originally Posted by The Good Cop

the concept of an 'exploration preserve' sounds like a wonderful & worthwhile thing to me. The many challenges involved with making it work are things I have no brilliant suggestions for, but the idea seems worth working on.

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x2

OK so here's an honest question, which I'm surprised is not asked more;

If I'm surfing around Google Maps or maybe I come across a canyon pic on the interwebs.... And I post it here asking "where is this, or what's the name of this canyon?"....

If the canyon is in the Preserve, or in Beta Only phase, what is the correct response? A private message? A reply stating that this canyon is part of the Preserve? Because to put it bluntly, this thread turned ugly when an honest canyon seeker was attacked by the mysterious "juaquin" for using online resources to look for canyons. Maybe canyon research is only allowed from a book? Argue that if you must (but please don't), and it just got nasty after that.

But how are the noobs and other canyon seekers supposed to know if a canyon is off limits, secret, show but don't tell, beta, handshake, campfire talk, or paid guide only? And if the inquiring thread gets deleted, then that invites others to ask over and over again because there is no sign of the original question.

Serious inquiry, smart ass responses not needed.

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

If the canyon is in the Preserve,

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So long as the elitest continue to bully noob's the way I saw in this thread you can kiss the idea of a preserve good-bye.

I think I'll just go back to the good ol' days when I cherry picked the best of the show don't tell canyons and betaed the hell outta them.... I'm sure guys like juaquin remember those days fondly...

And I hope this isn't taken as a smartass remark, because I'm serious. I thought it was a disgrace the way a noob doing the research, and looking for canyons the correct way by pouring over his maps was treated...

Now I'm off to do some show-don't-tell canyons... with my trusty notebook, GPS and camera.

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by JennyMae

Come on! People are reading this stuff! Some of you fail to even sign your name to your post(s)! If this diminishing kind of dialogue occurred in a face-to-face setting, there would likely be guns, knives, bloody noses and all would be sent to the principal's office. Your parents would be called, your granny saddened and expulsion warranted in many cases! Who among you would dare to say such nasty things to someone's face?!

Respectfully,
Jenny (Luella and Edna's Grand daughter)

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Hahaha with this thread "cleaned up" I had missed this post and it was well written. I think you are a little off base on the violence scenario though. Even though we all have different opinions and don't really get along online, I think there is an underlying respect everyone has for each other and doing a canyon we are fine. Having a different opinion is completely different than wishing violence upon someone. We aren't neanderthals you know :) For Example, I argue probably with Tom the most online, I have done a canyon with him and found his company very agreeable, he was full of knowledge and a very good guide. No matter what we say online to each other, I doubt either of us is really angry and would wish violence upon the other. I'm sure it's the same for all of us here. In all the time spent here and myriad of different personalities, I've only heard of one single instance where one canyoneer assaulted another on a trip. That's a pretty good record and testament to the quality people canyoneers are.

Although perhaps violent instances do occur and the parties just agree to keep silent about it, I could be wrong about my "one bad apple" theory. :lol8:

But no, I don't think you are naive in your thinking or wrong with your thoughts. Bummed I miss your post the first time, good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

If I'm surfing around Google Maps or maybe I come across a canyon pic on the interwebs.... And I post it here asking "where is this, or what's the name of this canyon?"....

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I think you just do the canyon and then find out later honestly. Some friends and I thought we were one of the first through a canyon "we thought" we discovered up in Silver Reef area. Pretty close to Yankee Doodle actually. We came loaded to the hilt and expecting some awesome beta adventures. Once inside the canyon, it was very clear lots of people had been in there before us and it was very well traveled. And I was so looking so forward to coming up with a name for it! Turns out it was Hidden Star and apparently very well known already. Ahhh well....

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

I think you just do the canyon and then find out later honestly.

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OK, say you do that, snap some pics, take some technical notes..... then what? Do you need approval of the committee before you can post the pictures? Because at some point you'll need to find out if anybody else knows of the canyon, risking harsh cyber discipline. Who do you beg and plead to? It can't all be via private message, if you're a noob - not knowing the experts.

My point is it's going to happen again. And that excited noob who is eager to contribute something to the community is just going to get his ass kicked by juaquin. And those who tell juaquin to simmer down (deathcricket) are going to be deemed the attacker for some strange reason.

Everybody is on board for canyon preservation to some extent. But there's no real plan in place on how to do that. So far it's just attacking the dude who stumbles upon the location, and then hopefully delete the thread.

Keep in mind I'm not part of the A-team elite secret handshake crew. But yeah, I would think publishing beta on one of their secret canyons, no matter how you got the info, would be cause for shunning. Just look at how that poor lady was treated in this very thread for an example, can't recall the name, Sarah I think? Thank goodness there is very little else they can do and their powers are very limited. So besides a "shame on you" type response their options are limited. Another reason I think Iceaxe's point in another thread about the fox guarding the henhouse was so pertinent.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

Keep in mind I'm not part of the A-team elite secret handshake crew. But yeah, I would think publishing beta on one of their secret canyons, no matter how you got the info, would be cause for shunning.

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I understand this, but the question is, how does the eager canyoneer know the canyon is part of that secret beta group - the "Preserve", or if it's truly a first time discovery? How do they refrain from publishing beta? Where is the "allowed canyons list" to compare against? If it exists, is it complete? And if it's complete, that would show the arrogance of the authors who say "if it's not on the list we are giving you, we have decided you can't post it anywhere on the internet".

I understand that a list of secret canyons can't be published, destroying the purpose thereof, but without knowing which canyons are off limits, the explorer has to be completely innocent and shouldn't be chastised for asking about a certain crack in the earth.

So back to the million dollar question, how was Slot Machine to know he was exposing sacred canyons?

Very good questions Sombeech, one thing from your description does jump out to me; at least the way I perceived what I read on the thread. With respect to Slot Machine's questions I entirely agree regarding their legitimacy & that he was treated with an unreasonable lack of respect...but I did not see that coming from the so-called "A-team". What I saw from the folks who I know on that "A-team" list - not a big fan of that term, but whatever, for clarity - (early in the thread, Tom) was a polite invite to a private discussion, offering info. In addition, I saw Tom encourage people to do the canyons cleanly, and to be careful because they are not easy.

That seemed pretty reasonable & respectful to me, am I wrong?

I don't know several of the folks involved in the discussion, so perhaps my understanding of the dynamic is mistaken; but that's what I saw.

I would throw out for consideration the thought that if someone posting a map & questions regarding a canyon were answered in a polite & respectful way about it, that there would be the potential for people to be comfortable with it.

In addition, I don't believe the idea of an exploration preserve precludes the idea of maps being posted; after all they're "posted" on Google Earth for all to see anyway. My understanding of an exploration preserve is that the primary focus is with respect to exploring the canyons themselves without prior specific beta...am I wrong there?

Let me know if I'm missing the mark on my understanding,

Thanks,

Wayne

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Originally Posted by oldno7

This thread or any other relating to canyoneering should not be deleted, If your worried about it, Ken, as one of the top posters on this thread, quit posting and hope it will die.

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OK, threads don't die. I am not sure I said anything meaningful so I didn't bother to drink the "blog post koolaid."

I think there are a number of object lessons from this thread.

First, as noted above, threads don't die. So if you want to permanently publicize a canyon or a canyoneering trip report, this is a great forum. I think we can all agree that is of incredible service to this community.

On the other hand, if it is not your goal to permanently publicize a canyon or a canyoneering trip report, don't post it here. If you have discovered or think you have discovered a new canyon and you want to share that with the world, this is a probably the essential place to make your post. If that canyon was someone's secret handshake canyon, they may get pissed. This is fundamentally different than placing a bolt into a previously unbolted canyon. Someone who does not feel that bolt should be there can pull the bolt, fill the hole with sand and epoxy and virtually all traces of the bolt are gone. Publicizing a canyon that previously was below the radar of the general canyoneering community puts out the welcome mat.

If you have "discovered” a new canyon, there are alternatives to posting this fact as a public thread. I suspect that Slot Machine could have gotten all of the beta he was looking for by private messaging members of this forum.

I will leave for others to ponder the value, ethics, and ethos of secret canyons. Clearly if you have a secret canyon, a number of factors come into play regarding the utility of secrecy. I openly wonder about that utility if the secret canyon is really an open secret. It begins to remind me of locals only surfing rules. For the most part these canyons are public but we all share a responsibility for their stewardship. Yes, out there where no one is looking you are the law.

I think the idea of unbetaed canyons is intriguing. However, there is a fundamental difference between a secret canyon and a named canyon for which the community has agreed to not provide detailed information to preserve the experience of descending a previously unexplored canyon. Of course anyone who decided that this was some type of elitist exercise might simply post a detailed report here or elsewhere making it easy for canyoneers like myself to ultimately retrace that route with my printed route in one hand and a Mountain Dew in the other (a shout out to Brejcha).

Shane and Kurt, I do understand and appreciate where you are coming from. If you are going to keep a canyon secret, it probably shouldn't be an open secret. One of the reputations of the Bogley Canyoneering forum is that it is unkind to noobs. I think yes it can be, but the community can also be very generous. There are fundamental questions regarding secret canyons: 1) Why are you keeping it secret? Are you attempting to preserve the canyon? Are you using this information to win friends and influence others? 2) When and how does information regarding a previously secret canyon get disseminated? Does anyone have other examples or is this terra incognito? Did it go more smoothly the last time this happened? Or are we just trying to herd a bunch of ringtail cats down a canyon? If that’s the case, it is unrealistic to expect the process to be anything but chaotic.

Wayne, I also think that Slot Machine’s post could have been met with a respectful private message and a request to remove the public post. We of course do not know if parties offered to take him down the canyon in return for removing his post.

Ken

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Originally Posted by spinesnaper

One of the reputations of the Bogley Canyoneering forum is that it is unkind to noobs.

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If this is the case, we need to fix this. Where can we start?

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Originally Posted by spinesnaper

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Wayne, I also think that Slot Machine’s post could have been met with a respectful private message and a request to remove the public post. We of course do not know if parties offered to take him down the canyon in return for removing his post.

Ken

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It was met with a respectful private message, and no request to remove the public post. An offer to take him down it would have occurred soon after.

He denied - the first time anyone has denied, actually.

SM said he found the message "demanding". I do not have a copy of the message, so I don't know, but I remember it as being short and to the point.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

If this is the case, we need to fix this. Where can we start?

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I actually thought the forum was really welcoming when I joined. Just sayin'.

I would not have called my "initiation" particularly welcoming.

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Originally Posted by ilipichicuma

I actually thought the forum was really welcoming when I joined. Just sayin'.

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Cliff

That is my personal experience too with the exception of a few snarky comments, and an occasional admonishment. However, I am not out there pushing the envelope. I also have a pretty tough skin and recognize that it is easy to be insensitive and offensive in an online post. Rereading this entire thread, I suspect that Bob (aka Slot Machine) may be of the opinion that this forum is pretty unwelcoming. This wasn't his only thread that has gotten a bit thrashed.

Ken

Well I know DeathCricket had a snarky comment at Juaquin.Phoenix (1 time poster) and I reminded to be nicer to noobs in which he quickly apologized for (thank you again). However, J.P. was the one who instigated the name-callin in the first place. You can't be coming in with guns a blazing to the firum and expect to get away unscathed.

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Originally Posted by jman

Well I know DeathCricket had a snarky comment at Juaquin.Phoenix (1 time poster) and I reminded to be nicer to noobs in which he quickly apologized for (thank you again). However, J.P. was the one who instigated the name-callin in the first place. You can't be coming in with guns a blazing to the firum and expect to get away unscathed.

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Assuming of course that J.P. was an actual 1 time poster and not a proxy for a longer term member of the Bogley community.:kicknuts:

Ken

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

I understand this, but the question is, how does the eager canyoneer know the canyon is part of that secret beta group - the "Preserve", or if it's truly a first time discovery? How do they refrain from publishing beta? Where is the "allowed canyons list" to compare against? If it exists, is it complete? And if it's complete, that would show the arrogance of the authors who say "if it's not on the list we are giving you, we have decided you can't post it anywhere on the internet".

I understand that a list of secret canyons can't be published, destroying the purpose thereof, but without knowing which canyons are off limits, the explorer has to be completely innocent and shouldn't be chastised for asking about a certain crack in the earth.

So back to the million dollar question, how was Slot Machine to know he was exposing sacred canyons?

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In my opinion, there really is no "preserve". If someone goes out on their own, finds a canyon using google earth or whatever, descends it, and then posts pictures and beta, that's fine, and if someone else wanted to keep it secret, well..., that's the way the cookie crumbles. Of course, if someone is shown a canyon by another, on condition of not publicizing it, they should obviously keep quiet about it (if they have any sense of self respect). I understand why some don't want to make public what they have explored, and have no problem with that at all. But if anyone else finds it on their own, they can certainly do whatever they want with the beta they have.

Nat