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FWIW: This thread will not be deleted. One of the core values of Bogley and a major reason for its existence is to allow a free-flowing exchange of information.
So... having my support means the B-Team (maybe that should be Rebel Alliance?) doesn't charge in on a sunny weekend in the near future and beta the entire complex in a detailed and systematic format.
Shane
This of course is the inevitable conflict. If you are in the business of selling information (or getting eyeballs and selling ads), the more conflict and controversy the better. The community has a long memory so this thread perhaps can serve as an object lesson. Given then that these canyons have officially been outted, is it possible to have a limit on the detail of beta or will this also be eroded to "allow a free-flowing exchange of information?"
Ken
This thread or any other relating to canyoneering should not be deleted, If your worried about it, Ken, as one of the top posters on this thread, quit posting and hope it will die.
Theres already been some great comments and participation by many, including some of the first group to "officially" descend these canyons.
Censorship is self serving in this case, open dialogue is the preferred method. imo.
I didn't see or hear anything that states these canyons have been "outed". There were suggestions and sharing of ideas, along with some dissension from the "original" group.
Theres still un beta'd and un explored canyons out there, many in fact!!!
I guess Ken would prefer all of Steve Allen's and Mike Kelsey's books be banned and all remaining copies burned?(you might be surprised how many canyons have previously been documented in these books alone)
You may notice, I struggle with the idea of locking threads and censoring an entire community.
While deleting the whole thread requires a moderator and is against policy (ie, an abomination), individuals are free to remove their own content in the thread, either selectively or in toto. Select 'edit', replace content with 'blank', select 'save'.
Tom :moses:
No, what I said was that the hypocrisy runs deep. I do not venture into canyons without every ounce of beta I can scrounge up. I own all the canyoneering guides that are published. I scour the internet for canyoneering blogs and love reading reports about canyons that I am probably never going to do. And, yes Shane, I will be soon renewing my subscription to Climb Utah. But I also respect the desire to protect some canyons from being loved to death. I think it is also interesting to talk about how these canyons bubble up to public awareness. Development is inevitable, conservation takes work.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Respectfully
Ken
Actually that "depends".... In the past when individuals have used such a method to try and "trash" or attack the forum their abilities to "edit" have been removed. Super Mod's also have the ability to restore deleted content. Actions detrimental to the forum as a whole are usually frowned upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Those types of calls are above my pay grade, just pointing out that Tom's information was not entirely accurate.
You didn't say this----Quote:
Originally Posted by spinesnaper
"Geez guys, these poor canyons are going to be committeed to death. Just frigging delete the thread."
or this----
"Unless these threads are taken down, it is inevitable that these particular canyons will see much more traffic and I suspect that with the proliferation of beta sites, someone will spill the beans."
You did say this--
"No, what I said was that the hypocrisy runs deep."
And on that--I wholeheartedly agree
Yes, yes I did and I stand by those statements. I think we all know that these canyons will change in character as they are popularized. Will it be the death of a canyon? Sure blogospheric hyperbole to make the point regarding how a wild canyon changes with human impact. We can have a debate about whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. The inherent contradiction is that I am involved in canyoneering in no small measure because of the success of forums like this. I am sure that is true for many canyoneers. At the same time I can understand the reluctance of certain canyoneers to spill the beans and share information on canyons as a way of preserving wild places. The irony is that in many cases it appears that the canyoneers most actively involved in promoting and in many cases profiting from the growth in canyoneering are also the ones weighing what information to disseminate. The conflict of interest is obvious.
Ken
Slot Machine gets the beta he requests in the form of "yes, the canyons are good and worth doing", and than SM pulls up the ladder behind himself... I just don't really agree with that, I believe its disrespectful to those outside of the A-team that provided him with what they knew.
I'm pretty sure that #5 is the slot the now deleted pretty pothole pictures came from... I could be wrong.
#5 - N37 41' 20", W110 31' 18"
Attachment 51006
I'm busy until the end of February-ish,
Might have to put together a Dantes bogleyfest.
Yep--no respect for SM.
Tom--well, as mentioned in this thread already, believes conditions he instigates, don't apply to him.(hypocritical??me thinks) don't need a separate thread to see that.
All Bogley members have the ability to download an entire thread
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?40649
Which I did when I saw the direction this was going..... Here is a transcript before the mass deletion:
Wow! :eek2: I kept seeing this thread popping up on my "what's new" list and I finally jumped in fully and finished reading it...wasted my whole lunch. What an excellent read! :popcorn:
I learned a great deal reading this thread and it really gave me a great perspective into all sides of the argument. I too hope that none of the valuable dialog is deleted. I for one learned some valuable lessons and was educated. Terrific. :2thumbs:
~sarcasm~ Happy to have you as a fan, Kurt. :2thumbs: ~/sarcasm~Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Looks like its too late. :facepalm1: I see a bunch of blank posts and by people who I wouldn't think would be into this type of activity. Shoot, that was valuable stuff for the community to read and understand. I learned a bunch and it seems that much of the dialog about ethics was deleted too. Which didn't have anything to do with the secret canyons. Ah well, laters... :ne_nau:
And heres a post after Tom and Hank posted pictures from the canyon.
"When is an agreement not an agreement? When pictures and beta are given publicly to the community with the goal of bullying, flaunting, taunting, and/or manipulating, it breaks the agreement.
Half of the ‘A team’ unique to the Dante’s has broken the agreement. It is null and void. I no longer feel bound by an honorable agreement. I will not stand by and be part of bullying, deceit, and manipulation. It is against the moral standards by which I guide my entire life, not just the recreational sport of canyoneering.
I wonder how the other ‘hundreds’ are feeling, having bargained in good faith."
Penny
Soo? Who's the hypocrites?
Still can't see it Tom?
Nuance Kurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
There is a big difference between pictures and beta. The agreement was not to paste beta, not to give away the location. Identifying pictures definitely forbidden. A picture of a person crossing a pothole - hardly identifiable. Thus, while Penny thinks I have given it away, I disagree. I believe I am inside the agreement. But I took down the picture anyway (too late) because she objected.
Tom :moses:
Nuance/smuance, my guess is a lot of canyon folks, now know where the Dantes are.
really my only problem here is figuring out how you label enough canyons here to get 9 inferno's.:twisted:
and who got to decide, out of the 9, which was the worst level.:haha:
No inferno on this side of the hill today, more like 5-6" of snow and still flurrying.
blah blah blah
once again back into a thread full of instigating with subtle and not so subtle shots at folks
Why don't you guys just go do the canyons instead of talking about it. Heres the weather forecast, looks good: http://www.wunderground.com/US/UT/Hanksville.html
Or just resume posting "neener neener" BS like the map that was deleted by the originator, or how to save threads.
Its getting pretty embarrassing.
[LEFT]Well, I
Come back sooner than later, that was a nice post and well said. :2thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by mdd