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Yep you are right. my bad I will quiet down.. I see your point but I would not be in a ridiculously tight portion of a unmapped portion of this cave in his current family situation. Have you been through the tight portions of this cave? It tells you when to stop! It is no cake walk.Quote:
Originally Posted by denaliguide
nope, i have never been in this cave. i have however been through many tight squeezes in other caves. ones where you could only inch forward after you have fully exhaled, then take a couple of breaths without panicking, before inching forward again. this was a long time ago and about i was 40 pounds lighter. today i would probably be stuck well before it got "tight". hell i can't even consider some skinny slots cause my gut gets in the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrabe1979
yet i don't shy away from exposure in other activities i pursue, just because i worry about my family. i often do trips with 4th and easy 5th class exposure, usually solo, sometimes without filing a trip plan, signing the trailhead register, or even telling people where i am going (i may tell someone i am going to be on cedar mesa or some other geographic area). usually because i don't even know what trail i will be doing the next day until i get out there.
oh, and i don't have a spot either.
i am so bad. :twisted:
I'll be the first to raise my hand. Maybe I am just a big wuss or a sucker for my two little kids, but I don't take half the risks now that I am married with two kids as I did when I I was single. I remember stunts I would pull on my bullet bike like wheelies at freeway speeds and such. Makes me shudder now to think how close i lived to the edge. Everytime i hit canyons now, I am constantly second guessing myself on stuff i normally wouldn't have thought twice about. Point being for me, is my family is everything. Without family, you have nothing. So taking risks that puts your life in jeapordy is just not worth it. Quite honestly, I cried when I heard that he didn't make it out. Not really because he lost his life (that being tragic in and of itself), but because his poor wife is left alone with a 14 month old daughter and one on the way. I weep for her, and I weep everytime I think about his daughter asking mommy when Daddy is coming home. The pain I imagine is unreal, but I guess that is life. I just choose to live mine so the odds are in my favor and i can enjoy it with my loved ones for as long as i canQuote:
Originally Posted by denaliguide
I really have just one question I'd like to ask the guy.... "At what point did you realize that crawling down this tiny finger with no chance of escape was a bad idea?"
Not to pick on the dead, but you have to work extremely hard to get stuck as bad as he was. I'd think that at least a dozen times while crawling down the tiny finger the thought of how are you going to get turned around and escape would come into play.
:cool2:
I get a little panicy sitting in my cubicle and just imagining this senario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I would venture that this guy was fairly experienced in spelunking and had the same attitude that 90% of people going into Nutty Putty have: Not really difficult and if i get myself in trouble, someone can help out. Why the hell he got in THAT far without turning back due to concern over his own safety is just speculation
x2Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
This is from the NSS forum - link here
Fellow Cavers:
I wish to share some of my private viewpoints. My statements do not
reflect those of the grottos, the rescue agencies, or the rest of the
cave management team. Instead, they are my own and as such I will share
some insights. I am just going to type and not edit. Let me free flow a
bit and let's see what comes out through my fingertips into the
keyboard...
GUILT - As the Cave Access Manager, I still feel a guilt for pushing the
cave opening forth and for the events to have happened. I watched the
grief on the faces of our friends as they came up out of the cave
exhausted and depleted knowing they gave it their all. Many of them were
in earshot of the excruciating death that took so long to come to
fruition. I can imagine no other more ignominious way to pass from this
life through the veil.
FREE AGENCY - I know that John had his free agency and his decisions to
explore uncharted portions of the cave brought about his death. I mourn
with his family at the loss of his passing, but I know the cave is not
responsible for his death. Nothing in the cave fell and crushed him. The
cave was not unstable and it is not the public risk that it is being
portrayed.
CRAWLING DELIGHT - As far as horizontal caves go, the Nutty Putty Cave
is a crawling delight. You can explore to whatever levels you desire. It
is a beginner to intermediate cave, with some very expert and tiny
passages. These passages are obviously small at the start and nobody is
forced to enter them.
FIRST TIME GROUP - The Jones family group was a first time to the cave
group. Although their list of experience visiting other caves was
shared, this made the group qualified to enter the cave from a
management perspective. As part of our management plan we do not require
our Trip Leaders to have visited the cave before. Should we have? I
don't feel that we should have because this is a learning ground for
caving. Instead, we expect our Trip Leaders to be the very best.
ERRORS - This group was diverse in ages from 12 to 30 and all family. At
some point the decision was made to split the group and 26 year old John
and his 23 year old Trip Leader brother decided to explore the passage
that is not on the newer surveyed map. The access is tiny and there is
no indication that it leads to anywhere. Due to the long closure and
litle traffic through the cave in the past few years it is now very easy
to see well traveled passages. Dust/dirt covers everything that has not
received visitors. Traveled passages are indicated by polished black
stone. It is like night and day between traveled areas of the cave and
untraveled areas of the cave. We will never know why the decision was
made to force themselves into the really small untraveled passage other
than the sense of adventure.
MY AMAZEMENT - Since they had never visited the cave before I cannot
figure why they went off map. They had not been in the cave long enough
to visit all the wonderful parts of the Birth Canal and even Chris's
Crawl. I could understand if they had been to the cave so many times
that they were bored with the mapped portions of the cave, but it takes
a few trips even with the experienced guides to explore all of the
wonderful mapped passages in the cave. Why go off map? All of this was
new to the group and there was no reason to go off map.
WARNINGS - I have had to field dozens of questions as to adequate
warnings, and is the cave safe, and so on and so on. The public wants to
know the answers. Take a look at the website and download the waiver
from the site. We plead with cavers not to have and accident or death
because it will ruin it for everybody. This is a wild cave, but it is a
stable cave. The great thing about experience in caving is that it
teaches you what is safe for you. At 6'6" 200 pounds, there are
many areas of the cave that I was never ever going to experience. But at
the same stature I have seen many portions of the cave that people my
size will never experience. I can access some pretty tight places that
others cannot. What is safe for me might not be safe for you. Welcome to
caving.
IS THE CAVE BEING SINGLED OUT - The Nutty Putty Cave is being singled
out by the governing powers including government agencies, search and
rescue agencies, and people who don't like caving. That is the
reality and we all have to get over it. The normal governing agencies
are scared to death of cave rescues. Why? Because they feel so helpless.
They have all of this wonderful rescue ability, equipment, and training,
yet very little of it works below ground. Most of the equipment is too
big. Most of the normal rescue parties are too big. It is very helpless
feeling standing above ground looking at over 100 other rescue personnel
knowing that only two individuals can get anywhere near the trapped
caver at a time. All the other man power can do very little.
5 RECUES 1 DEATH - This is the ratio being shared with the
Sherriff's Department. "We have been called out to the cave 5
times in the last 10 years and this resulted in 1 death. This is an
unacceptable ratio unlike any other rescue category. For this reason
alone the cave must be closed." I loosely quoted their sentiment,
but that is how they feel about it. I, on the other hand say "5,000
cavers a year for a decade (loose approximation) with 5 rescue attempts
and 1 death. 49,994 successful trips with 5 live cavers rescued and 1
death resulting in less than an average of 1 rescue attempt every 2
years. That is a very reasonable success rate." It would be
different if the cave had done something to take the life of this caver,
but there was no instability or collapse. The death is a result of
several unacceptable decisions on the part of the group.
DOMINO AFFECT - The fear from my perspective is that the closure of
Nutty Putty will be used to bolster support for closing other caves
around the country. This sentiment has been shared with me by other cave
managers as well. Would the same decision have been reached if the body
had been recovered? Probably it still would have been closed, but not in
a permanent fashion. Why? Because we would not have to be dealing with
the opinions and feelings of the family of the deceased.
TOMB - Because the body of John Jones was left in the cave it created a
very interesting situation that has not often been encountered. The
family was left in a powerful position and the land owners agreed to
their request to permanently seal the cave and prevent further
recreational caving in the Nutty Putty Cave. If his body would have been
recovered, then we don't have a burial issue to deal with. Instead,
we have a memorial issue where we deal with the specific location and
appropriate dealing of sealing off the passage where the death occurred.
Please deal with this information for now... My 11 year old son would
like me to break away from the multi-day ordeal long enough to spend
some family time. I promise to write more and would ask that you leave a
lot of the conjecture alone. This is still a painful experience and I
look forward to hearing from other rescuers and sharing more of my own
perspective in a safe environment. I respect you all well enough to feel
like this is a safe environment.
Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
I just heard the cries to keep the cave open on KSL. Let's hope they are heard.
Good read. Lots of things I was not aware of. Thanks for posting CB.
Here is a post from someone in the group and how it happened:
http://<br /> <a href="http://emjoe...jones.html</a>
I was part of 11 people who went to the Nutty Putty Cave on November 24th, 2009, just two days ago. I was invited by a great friend and old roommate, Josh Jones, to come along with he and a few family members. I have gone on several caving expeditions with Josh and thought it would be an enjoyable new cave to visit.
When we entered the cave Josh, John, Jessica (friend of Josh), and I went first, while two other adults and four teenagers followed behind. The cave is a geothermal hotspot and so it is very warm and moist in there. Because of this it was a little more difficult to breath, but also nice because it was around 30 degree Fahrenheit above ground.
The rest is hard to explain unless I can use my hands, but for simplicities sake: We had a map of the cave and got to a part where we couldn't find where it continued, so we each took a route that looked like it could be the right way. It is this part of the story that I keep recalling over and over in my head, because at this point I asked John if he wanted to explore the spot, which we later would learn is called the "Ed's Push" area. He went in to the spot face first because he was climbing up, but then it curved and started heading downwards, then it got too small for him to push himself backwards up against gravity, so he slid down further and became wedged. We didn't know he was stuck for several minutes. Jessica and I waited for Josh to get out of the hole he was exploring. When he did we told him (without much thought) to go in and see if John needed help, meanwhile Jessica and I explored two other spots where the cave could have continued. The rest of the group joined us at this point. We could not find where it continued, so sat waiting near the area. After about 15 minutes I hollered to Josh if things were okay. He came out in a mix of calm and panic and said he was going to go up and call for help and asked that I go in a comfort John and maybe try to help, because I was the only adult that would fit. So I crawled in above John (it was a very tight spot and I often would panic because it was difficult to move) and John and I tried several things to move him up. I did the best I could to keep him in good spirits by giving him little goals to reach. Mike, John's brother, was outside of the tight spot talking to me, which I much appreciated because it helped keep my spirits up. But after an hour I was becoming tired and scraped up and started to get psychologically messed up. I crawled out and Josh crawled in to see what he could do.
I crawled out of the cave and joined everyone else outside of the cave. They had all been gathered around the entrance praying and singing church hymns. The search and rescue vehicles started to show up and we decided we needed to get the teenagers home. And we felt there was nothing we could do but get in the way, so a group of us left, leaving Josh and Mike and another brother-in-law with John.
Mr Leavitt is also a member of Bogley. Hope he comes post something here. But rightfully he has other things on his mind right now and I respect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs
Yep: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8885669Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
KSL.COM
Cavers fighting to keep Nutty Putty open
December 2, 2009
UTAH COUNTY -- A growing number of cavers are trying to find ways to persuade officials to keep the Nutty Putty caves open.
Benjamin Allen has been in the Nutty Putty caves dozens of times and says he used to take therapy groups there to teach people how to overcome fears and gain confidence.
"I think it's done so much good for so many people, because as they go in there it's just like conquering a climbing wall or something. You feel confident. You've done something that you were afraid to do. Shutting the caves would be a great loss to all of us," Allen says.
He's proposing only the lower sections of the caves be sealed off, and he's even willing to pay to have it done himself.
"I would pay for it and take people in there, and we could close off the bottom section," Allen says. "The rest of the cave could still remain open.
Michael Douglas takes nature groups through Nutty Putty and says he's been in the caves at least 45 times in the past 10 years with kids as young as 5 years old.
"We're in mourning. We are very disappointed to see this shut down," Douglas says. "There are other caving opportunities in the area, but Nutty Putty is a very unique feature and we hope that if there is the opportunity to keep it open that somebody might here us and might open that discussion as quickly as possible.
The email address savenuttyputtycave@gmail.com has been set up by a group hoping to keep the caves open, and they're directing their efforts toward the State Trust Lands Management which owns the property.
Sgt. Spencer Cannon with the Utah County Sheriff's office says his office is receiving phone calls from people upset by the caves' closure. However, he says the decision made by the groups overseeing the caves -- including the sheriff's office and the State Trust Lands -- will be enforced and the caves sealed off.
"We understand that people like to go there, and we don't take likely a decision to shut off an attraction that has been popular to so many people," Cannon says. "But the determination was made that the risk was just too high to leave it open."
Cannon says during the process, agencies did discuss closing only the portion of the cave where John Jones died but decided there were many different sections of the cave that also were dangerous.
The idea was also brought up to close the cave for 10 or more years and then go in and recover the remains and open the rest of the cave back up. Cannon says that was decided against as well in part because the body is stuck in a steep area that is difficult to get to and the remains might fall deeper where they can never be recovered.
"But the determination was made that the risk was just too high to leave it open."
What a bunch of BS, if you closed every road that had 1 person killed on it in the past 20 years we'd all be walking everywhere.
I heard on the news this morning that they are going to seal it in a fashion that makes it possible to re-open.
A gate or something near where John's remains are and sealing the entrance so it could be reopened in the future.
Channel 2 Story Here
This line stood out to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BruteForce
Quote:
UTAH COUNTY - Officials in Utah County have formulated a plan, with the reluctant approval of the family of the man who died while stuck in the infamous Nutty Putty Cave, to seal up the cave permanently.
Utah County officials begin sealing Nutty Putty Cave
December 3rd, 2009 @ 6:59am
PROVO, Utah (AP) -- The Utah County Sheriff's Office has begun to seal off the deadly Nutty Putty Cave.
Officials decided to permanently close the cavern after 26-year-old John Jones died last week after he became stuck in a narrow crevice.
Sheriff Jim Tracy says the popular spelunking site south of Salt Lake City will be completely sealed by the end of the week.
He says the cave will have two seals, one where Jones's body now lies, and one at the entrance of the cave.
Tracy says there has been significant backlash against closing the cave. He says it is not a decision that will make everyone happy, but it serves all parties the best.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8892976
So I assume closing Highway 6 is next?Quote:
Originally Posted by nonot
I feel that way, too. I respect the wishes and needs of my family, and if I think something is a little too risky, I back off. I had been toying with the idea of getting into technical canyoneering, but the idea makes my wife too nervous. She doesn't need that kind of stress, and I respect that - she does so much for me, so I will do that for her. There are all kinds of lower-risk adventures, some of which she and I can share, that are still incredibly satisfying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedus