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Agreed. They hold a lot of land in that area. I can't imagine they care as much about access to their property as a private land owner would. We were going to go down and see if their land is posted or if a way can be found around the LDS property...but like I say, we bailed out after seeing the gate on the road with signage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Tresspassing - Oak Creeks
From the LDS/Stake side - South Side of the Canyon: With authorization or permission one would be allowed on the property and would have permission to enter the technical corridor. Otherwise there is a gate - most often locked - with a no tresspassing sign on it. If one has approval though, one can access the technical start without having to travel through the "built up" camp zone. Normally there is a camp manager on site and during the week, many young people and adults.
From the Private Property - North Side: Mr. Bird (above) has posted his statement and intention. (Re access to the S Fork), Canyoneers should also note there is a Middle Fork and a North Fork to Oak Creek. Different land owners involved here. Middle is not much of a "canyon" & is often used as the exit (ascending exit) when ZAC customers finish traveling down the S Fork.
For those curious re the ZAC S Fork route. (I'm NOT connected with ZAC) The trip, most often, involves taking a 1-2 200 ft ropes, or a pull cord and rope through S Fork. If exiting the Middle up - via ascending; there is approx 350 "up" on the venture. A sloped 50 ft. or so up from the canyon floor, then a walk, then a wall maybe 80-90 ft., a short walk and then a big wall - over 200 ft up to a the ledge. Then it's an upclimb and walk back to the road. With ZAC, somebody (guide or?) gets to carry wet ropes up the the exit and on the ascent. On a private trip (if one does it) there are wet ropes, (wet) wet suits and then the other ropes "set" for the upclimb. OR, there is the option of "going down canyon and out the MIA exit; or there are other options for ascending, if one "legally" goes down the South Fork of Oak.
Tresspassing citations/arrests are normally issued by public safety officers - not by citizens. Often a private property owner will see and or notify a tresspasser and then phone or notify a sherriff or deputy. If photos though are taken of tresspassing citizens or vehicles and the property is properly posted, there is likely a legal "presumption" that a/the party (without permission) is trespassing. Parked vehicles with plates; angy owners with cameras and access to officers. Reminds me of angry rangers in Zion chasing after rope bearing canyoneers exiting (you name it). Would be nice if a "public" S Fork entry/exit were agreed to by interested parties. Wonder what the tipping point - dollar leverage - would be, for an isolated group of canyoneers?
Cilantro13 said,
"Keep in mind, the whole point of property rights are to make productive use of the land."
Where did that come from and who is to define what I feel is 'productive'. You, no way! If I want to let canyoneers use my property but do not allow runners to do so, that is my right. If I want no recreation on the land and only want to utilize the view from it, that is my right! If I want to sell the mineral rights to my land and let people drill on it, that is my right (whoops I might have gone too far; heh, heh).
Now, if you are homesteading the land then I know there are provisions that state what must be done to the land for you to maintain your ability to live there.
Have a great year,
bruce from bryce