Trump will visit Utah to change Bears Ears and Grand Staircase national monuments

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Hardly a stunt.

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It's genius actually. I've seen so many people donating money, not just the 1 percenters, but people I know, friends, colleagues donating money to the cause.

Then, these 1 percenter CEOs (oh they're the good kind of 1 percenter billionaires) will take this money and throw it away on a lawsuit, and the lawyers (no doubtedly 1 percenters too) will get even more money.

Interesting, the only people losing money on this deal are the middle class people. That's weird.

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Originally Posted by twotimer

There used to be a lot more liberals around here, but they're generally thinned skinned and got tired of getting their asses kicked...so they left.

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Or they just got tired of the site. Besides, "liberal" is just a term people throw around here for anyone that doesnt agree 100% with a conservative agenda or Donald Trump. I myself am an independent, though I certainly do tend to side with the liberals on outdoor issues.

As for me I'd go for Donald Trump in charge of the checkbook, a John Muir equivalent in charge of the outdoors and the environment, and Rand Paul in charge of foreign policy. Maybe someone like Eisenhower for infrastructure? The rest can be sorted out.

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Who stole the land just depends on which side of the door you're on.

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True. Personally, I'd like to see the issue put on a ballot.

Anyway, although I usually support land protections, I can't say I was really a strong supporter of Bears Ears at this time. My concern is that an unfunded monument (and the chances of this monument being funded under the current administration are slim) isn't much better than no monument.

To me it's sad that many people don't see the value in windlands or preservation. There are exceptions, but usually once those areas are lost, they don't come back.

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Originally Posted by Scott P

True. Personally, I'd like to see the issue put on a ballot.

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Basically already been done, that's why we elect our representatives. Bears Ears and GSENM is a topic Congress could easily and quickly sort out if they were so inclined.

Maybe we just need new representatives.

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

It's genius actually. I've seen so many people donating money, not just the 1 percenters, but people I know, friends, colleagues donating money to the cause.

Then, these 1 percenter CEOs (oh they're the good kind of 1 percenter billionaires) will take this money and throw it away on a lawsuit, and the lawyers (no doubtedly 1 percenters too) will get even more money.

Interesting, the only people losing money on this deal are the middle class people. That's weird.

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Maybe they care. Its not a loss of money, its an investment in the future. A future that would benefit even you.

You gotta helluva lot more in common with Yvon than you do with the Donald. Which is why its hard to understand you're stickin' a fork in this stuff. Do you not care what happens to this public land? Do you not care for how its managed? Or, do you choose to be blissfully ignorant?

Geez...most of us here are pretty outdoorsly. I can't get my head around why we're not on the same page when it comes to public land.

Yvon's one of the good guys. You're more than likely to run into him outdoors that just about anyone slappin' Trump on the back at the photo op in Utah the other day. I've run into him. Nice guy. Pretty easy to talk to. Gives a shit about our public land.

A friend ran into Zinke up in Whitefish earlier this year. They did not have a good chat.

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

Who did Trump steal the land from?

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After reading the above post I notice Brian in SLC has his hand raised.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Basically already been done, that's why we elect our representatives. Bears Ears and GSENM is a topic Congress could easily and quickly sort out if they were so inclined.

Maybe we just need new representatives.

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I'd still like a chance to vote more on issues than mostly just for politicians, and this goes for not just the monument.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

After reading the above post I notice Brian in SLC has his hand raised.

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Stole it from all of us, holmes.

(Sorry, that photo of you guys headin' to lava is makin' me chuckle...I notice you don't have your hand raised...ha ha).

I still wonder if this is a ploy to ultimately transfer ownership of this land to the state.

The SITLA land swap from GSENM was a win for the state. Did that land get stole back to the feds?

The pending brokered land swap from Bears Ears would have been a good deal too. Shame.

Makes me think of the Right Fork of Indian Canyon....recall running into a locked gate there awhile back...right at one of new pads.

Monument status was a good deal if you like outdoor recreation...to include hunting, fishing, and hiking.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

It is weird, though. Even folks opposed to the monument have stated that there's not much in the way of mining or oil/gas. Coal in the GSENM for sure. And, some oil/gas possibility around (north) of Indian Creek...I seem to have noted.

So...was it really done for spite and political favor? Seems silly if that's the case.

The locals are xenophobic methinks and many won't embrace the industry of tourism. They got nothing else. Grazing cattle? Eeek. That just can't be profitable. Who'd eat beef raised in that country? And the carrot of high paying extraction jobs just isn't real.

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I couldn't agree more, Brian. It's a question that's been rolling around in my head ever since Trump signed the papers. If not for the benefit of mineral extraction, then what was the underlying motive?

Was it just done in spite to undo what Obama did? Seems silly and pointless.

Makes me wonder how many political decisions are made for no other reason than to satisfy someone's ego.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Do you not care what happens to this public land? Do you not care for how its managed?

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See, this is the primary issue, people think that if it's not managed 1 certain way by a very specific group in Washington, then it is going to burn in a fire and erode to ashes and dust.

The rest of us are more open minded, no offense, that there are better ways, better people to manage these lands, people who are more emotionally invested in it.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Do you not care what happens to public land?

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Of course he doesn't care. He hates the outdoors...member? :haha:

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

See, this is the primary issue, people think that if it's not managed 1 certain way by a very specific group in Washington, then it is going to burn in a fire and erode to ashes and dust.

The rest of us are more open minded, no offense, that there are better ways, better people to manage these lands, people who are more emotionally invested in it.

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No offense taken and I appreciate the dialog.

Having known an number of Forest Service and BLM employees (and NPS too) over the years, all local to the areas they worked...and, all very emotionally invested in the land they managed, I'd disagree.

But...let's explore this. Do you know a local land manager, say, at the state or county level as an example? What could you show as evidence of this "better way"?

You recreate in the winter? Call the avy forecast center? You think a non-federal employee could do a better job? You don't think these folks are emotionally invested? That's just one very local and pertinent example. And timely. You got anyone in mind that could do a better job? I'm all ears.

Some of us are very involved with local land managers. Couple weeks ago a bunch of us met in Cottonwood Heights at a home with representatives from the Forest Service and UDOT to discuss transportation and parking issues in Little Cottonwood for example. This was a Q and A and discussion of issues and possible solutions type session. Forest Service was there on their own time, till after 9pm on a school night. Ditto the UDOT folks. You got someone in mind who you think could help, I'm all ears.

Would really like to hear who these better folk are you have in mind. Appreciate a fresh perspective. If you have contact info, or, you yourself would like to get involved, I'll make sure you're invited to the next policy or public land session that I know about. I think there's one scheduled next week and another in January.

So how much money was appropriated to establish and maintain the original BENM.

How much boots on the ground enforcement of any rules over and above the ones already in place before the monument was established was there before the area was reduced? And how much is taking place right now?

Not much I think.

If there is no money it doesn't matter what some piece of paper says about management. My guess it will be a very cold day before funding appears for either proposal.

@Brian in SLC - What are these policy sessions about, and why are they held? And by whom?

I'm interested...

There's a public meeting next week, 11 and 12 December, in Monticello. This would be a fun one...!

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...visory-council

The SLCA is trying to finalize a date and venue (someone who's willing to host...) for their next policy meeting. Rumor has January.

I think the EIS bid has (or is going) out for Little Cottonwood. The money attached to this is pretty significant:

http://www.sltrib.com/pb/news/politi...oney/comments/

Rumor has the EIS alone is 2 million bucks. Hope they're spending our tax money wisely....(ha ha).

Should be a scoping meeting coming up on the heels of this. I heard in January.

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See, this is the primary issue, people think that if it's not managed 1 certain way by a very specific group in Washington, then it is going to burn in a fire and erode to ashes and dust.

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I don't know anyone who has said or thought this.

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The rest of us are more open minded, no offense, that there are better ways, better people to manage these lands, people who are more emotionally invested in it.

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Who? I do agree with you though, but I was wondering who you had in mind. The state and counties in the area in question certainly haven't been making much of an effort to protect these lands. It seems that most of them just view the land with dollar signs or in some areas to test out their toys.

Do you know who is the biggest private land owner in San Juan County? It's the Nature Conservancy. They have done a good job of protecting the land and even preserving ranches.

If the state and counties made more effort to protect the land, I really don't think people would be pushing for these monuments. You can tell just by driving through some of these places whether or not many people care about the land.

Obviously, a Monument isn't the only use for land and development, oil exploration, motorized travel, etc., are also important.

The thing is though that the areas in the monument or former monument have seen a lot of abuse over the years (though the majority of it still remains in good condition). This land belongs to all Americans, not just the Feds. Those who have been going to such areas for a long time have seen the change for the worse happen over time. Entire ruins that I visited a few decades ago have disappeared (I assume because of cattle?), and of course grave robbing has been a chronic problem. It's not as you say, the whole land turns to ashes; it is piecemeal.

One thing I will say though is that if people hate the land being federal public land, then why live there? It's like those people that move to Provo and complain that there are too many Mormons. Those who don't like Federal land can move east of the Rockies. There is very little Federal land in the country east of the Rockies. People out west don't know how lucky they are.

Anyway, although there has been a lot of bad news when it comes to natural areas, there is good news in some areas including non-federal lands. When I was a kid, places like Corner Canyon or Butterflied Canyon around the Salt Lake Valley were kind of dumps. They are much better now. It's too bad that more of the rural communities in certain areas don't take more of an active role in such things, rather than just fight against anything that protects wild lands or natural areas. Some rural communities do take a part, while others do not. Often you can tell which ones do just by driving through of visiting.

PS, you don't hate the outdoors. You just don't love it as much as some of us do.:wink:

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Originally Posted by twotimer

There used to be a lot more liberals around here, but they're generally thinned skinned and got tired of getting their asses kicked...so they left.

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I'm going to side with Scott P here, people can call me whatever people want, I couldn't give a f*ck. I've got the thickest skin of all time, I hate liberals in general. I hate Ideologue conservatives. I do generally try to see the point of what people I don't agree with.

What I will do call a spade a spade.... This forum has turned into a drag, #notfakenews

God Bless The United Sheets.

One last thing...

I'd bet the house on this. If Roy Moore (R) was to run against resurrected the Jesus Christ who ran as a (D) and was known to be the Son of God. In Alabama Roy Moore would win. I think it'd be the same thing here in Utah if Jesus (D) ran against Hatch or Lee. I have a lot of equity in my house too.

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Originally Posted by DirkHammergate

I'd bet the house on this. If Roy Moore (R) was to run against resurrected the Jesus Christ who ran as a (D) and was known to be the Son of God. In Alabama Roy Moore would win. I think it'd be the same thing here in Utah if Jesus (D) ran against Hatch or Lee. I have a lot of equity in my house too.

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I totally agree.... and I can also guarantee that if Trump cured cancer tomorrow the headlines would read... Trump puts doctors out of business...

Or even better if Trump walked across the Potomac River and cured cancer the headlines would read Trump doesn't know how to swim....

So what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I totally agree.... and I can also guarantee that if Trump cured cancer tomorrow the headlines would read... Trump puts doctors out of business...

Or even better if Trump walked across the Potomac River and cured cancer the headlines would read Trump doesn't know how to swim....

So what's your point?

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Oh queue the presser tomorrow.... "No one has been better at Curing Cancer than me. I just did, it's a fact I just did.. I'm just the best at curing cancer. Yesterday, I walked on water, didn't get wet.... Jesus got wet when he tried to walk on water, I didn't get wet."

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

So what's your point?

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Basically to make you seem small and totally backward.