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Another thing...guys that posted info and pictures about these slots are all pissed off because...somebody else posted info and pictures about these slots.
The only thing worse than snobs are the hypocritical ones.
I'd bet Poe is getting gangbanged on a daily basis these days, eh?
Not really, they didn't want the area to be published at all, but they knew that Bob was going back in and so it was gonna happen so they tried to get their names out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by twotimer
Hyperbole aside it has seen an increase in traffic with rope grooves starting to form in some places from improper techniques. On my second trip to the area we actually ran in to another group while we were down there that was in the area to do the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by twotimer
Have you been through any of these? Wanna help me edit? :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Well now...it appears there there was some drama going on behind the scenes. A disagreement between the hardcore canyon baggers goes public.Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyBoy
"Hey man...Bob is going to spill the beans on our super secret canyons. We'd better do it first to claim the naming rights".
Fistfights at the trailhead ensue. Nice job, boys. This reminds me of all the pissing and moaning about Kelsey, but jacked up on 'roids.
I also can't believe that rank amateurs are going thru these remote, very difficult canyons. If they're leaving rope grooves then perhaps the guys that are beating each other up over naming rights should instead create threads detailing how to do it right?
That's one of the arguments against publishing these in the first place, it draws out the inexperienced people that feel like they can do it now because of the beta. There is a fair bit of beta out there on Poe and yet this damage still happens, for people to venture in to these places it shouldn't be necessary to publish a step by step walkthrough of how to descend them properly, by not publishing them it creates a barrier for those less confident in their skills so that once they go they do it properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by twotimer
There is plenty of wonderful betaed canyons out there where the masses can practice and build up their skills, let them go there until they are ready for a place like West and they will enjoy it and respect it all the more for the work they had to put in to get there. Anything easy to obtain will not be respected at the level it might deserve.
Wouldn't say these have been secret. I am not real vocal and read more then I speak, but I knew about them just by hanging around on the forums. I for one appreciated that there was not beta and looked forward to the opportunity to go sniff them out and explore them. There are plenty of canyons that have been beta. Leave some areas free to explore.Quote:
Originally Posted by twotimer
I get what you are saying in principle and have seen examples of where this is true, but I disagree as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyBoy
There are dozens of canyons that have easy access, are easy technically, and have an easy exit. Yet, they remain in "great" condition despite all of the local traffic.
People think that just because a canyon receives a ton of visitors that its a bad thing? That might be on par with the "purists".
But the irony here is that canyoneering IS exploring these slot canyons. And so EVERY descent is doing damage, even when precise care is being taken by noobs and experts alike.
If we want canyons to be pure - don't descend them. But that would defeat the entire purpose of canyoneering...quite the predicament!!
There HAS to be a trade-off to canyoneering. People get to see these amazing canyons but at what cost?
So doing Pinecreek with a max limit of 50/day is okay with everyone, but Poe having maybe less than a hundred people a year (rough guess) doing it a year is not-acceptable? Why is Pinecreek less protected than Poe?? Just because Poe is more remote? These are rhetorical questions.
You driving to the trailhead is making the road more distinguished. You walking on any trail to the canyon is making more of a defined trail. You using sand and water anchors in a "pristine" canyon is taking that natural sand and water from that local ecosystem which that local floral and fauna use and then transport it to a different system - causing more erosion, etc.
People using deodorant and soaps and then jumping into potholes, like in Imlay for example, are disturbing that pothole ecosystem. Etc.
The list goes on and on and so you (we) have a choice to make - ignore the issue and don't get involved with the canyoneering process, naming, protection, and access.
Or once the beta is out, educate the heck out of people.
My personal belief is that education, showing by example, engaging (civilly) with people who disagree with you, speaking up when you see problems (For example, I saw people etch their names on Double O Arch once in Arches NP and around 50+ people around the arch didn't say a word...except for one person. That was me. I told them to stop and then about 4 or 5 people joined in and were telling them, now forcefully, to stop doing that. They stopped and were awfully embarrassed. And I'm hoping that will open their eyes and change their behavior. (But people have their agency and I can only comment on things that I see or witness).
In other words - now that the cat is out of the bag - how is (or how should), the canyoneering community react to newly published beta?!
Btw - this wasn't directly specifically at you @TommyBoy, but your question got me thinking and is meant for the community.
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I think one of the big differences between the two is that the the easy canyons are just that easy. When canyons get harder and anchor solutions get tricky less skilled canyoneers tend to take an easy way out like leaving behind webbing because they don't have someone who can downclimb (not the end of the world but nice to avoid when you can) or anchoring higher up and rapping multiple stages on one anchor and leaving behind rope grooves (this is very bad form in my opinion).Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
I am somewhat guilty of this myself from when I was a beginner, but I think there is a rush for some to get out to those big bad hard canyons and instead of waiting till they have the skills to do it properly they go there too soon and try to dumb down the canyon because they weren't ready for its challenges.
The driving and hiking part I agree with, the potholes argument I've never understood, those things get destroyed every few months when a flash flood comes through bringing new sand/water/flora/fauna/etc. The ones out in the open away from slots need to be protected I do understand that, but anything in a slot is being flushed several times a year. If its fragile and its in a slot its not gonna survive anyway and if its not fragile the argument seems to go out the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Now that the beta is out education is absolutely imperative, I will agree on that, but the uproar is about it being published in the first place and I think my original argument on why not publishing beta in some areas at least has some merit. These areas are not easy to get to and the canyons are not easy to descend (at least if you're trying to do it without leaving marks) thus the no beta barrier is a good idea. Yes everyone should have the right to see them, but not publishing beta doesn't stop them. The area is still there if they want to go all they need to do is practice the skills necessary to do them properly. Or ask someone who does have the skills to take you, there are several out there who are willing so long as you agree to a few conditions that aren't really unreasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Oh and @jman you're fine, I understood it wasn't an attack on me personally, it was a POLITE well thought out response which is one of the things this discussion has been missing.
I rest my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
You know what surprises me the most though....that ANYONE wants to canyoneer with you. I presume there is a different persona in real life than online because I can't imagine anyone doing a second canyon with the one that shows up online. I mean, the people in your pictures seem like nice, normal people. It's hard to reconcile that with the way you treat people online.
"Hey man, mind carrying the rope for a while?"
"Lick my balls man!"
"What should we call this canyon? How about Potholes of Doom?"
"That's not a cat name! Every canyon I've ever done has to have a cat name ball-licker!"
I'm not sure you understand the essence of an exploration. There is far more to the process than not reading the book. The studying of maps, the poking around looking for a reasonable approach, the arriving "armed for bear" because you don't know what is there. Wondering if your skills are up to the task. Walking the rim before dropping in. Pulling that first rappel knowing you're committed and not knowing what's ahead. It's an aspect of canyoneering that can be pretty fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by twotimer
It's cool that it can be done in the same canyon more than once. Dozens of times even.
But you can really only publish beta for the first time once. In many ways, it is a selfish act. You've taken an experience that you got to have and ensured that no one else, ever again, can have it. Sad really.
Does the publication of these canyons in West affect me? Not really. I've already been there and done that. But an experience is being stolen from canyoneers who haven't been there and even people who haven't yet taken up canyoneering and replaced with a different experience, an experience that can be had in other canyoneering areas.
Is it too much to ask to have ONE unpublished, unbeta'd area in the entire state? How many published canyons are enough? 800? 1000? Those are the questions you should be asking rather than "can't those who want to explore just not read the book?"
I think that is a matter of perspective and not just a numbers game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyonero
I think a LOT of the "hardcore" canyoneers start off with the easy stuff but simply get bored and want to do the harder stuff quick! I mean Keyhole to Heaps in one day. Nevermind the fact that Zion has like what 30 or 40 canyons to do where they can improve skills, etc...
Plus, there is a LOT of ego that goes into doing the "first descent" of a canyon. I have one under my belt and it felt great! No lie there. So everyone is trying to find the extreme areas; the road less travelled. Then, due to ego, its not fun holding onto this canyon alone if no one else can relate to the experience...so then word gets out and slowly but surely it emerges into mainstream beta list.
Look at Checkerboard canyon, that was "ousted" not too long ago. I asked a backcountry ranger about it and he said that he hears about 20 or less a month who actually get a permit for it. It's a gem of a canyon, but the long entrance hike and long entrance hike out discourages the hordes.
My guess is that West will still be this same way, except for better beta being available now. That's not a bad thing.
The only thing on trial here is the perceived users experience.
I can't remember if I read this on Bogley or CC, but I remember a user saying that what he likes to with canyoneering is know the highest rappel length, trailhead info, if there is water or not, and then just go for and experience it that way. I like that a lot actually.
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Since I posted the info on Canyon Collective about 3 of the canyons noted on this thread, I'll give a little background. It was not my original idea to do this but I did support it. I have not been on a single exploration in the area and did not come up with a single name. My reason for posting was not to "stick it to Bob" but to acknowledge and give respect for the names chosen by those who have gone before. While I think the name "Smiling Cricket" is a great canyon name, I am glad that the canyon is known as "Poe" out of respect for Jenny Hall and Mike Bogart's original name.
In August 2014, 2 friends and I scouted out and completed an exploration of a slot. It was incredible. I liked figuring out the logistics of the approach, tackling each problem, and the inexplicable feeling of accomplishment and growth. The canyon was pristine, but on the big drop there was 1 undeniable rope groove. No first descent but an exploration to us that we will never forget as a group. We came up with a name that has multiple meanings and a great backstory- Siren. After reaching out to other canyoneers, we found out the canyon was done a measly 4 months before we went through and found out the original name it was given. A few weeks later another group went through the exact same slot and found out the same history we had discovered. They had the exact same experience we did. Remarkably, everyone refers to this under the original name, not their own. People gave respect to those who went through beforehand even though they didn't follow the unwritten rules of canyon naming.
I hope that gives some insight into where I am coming from. It was not my intention to create a war but I did assume that many of the same conversations about naming and publishing beta would occur. When I posted the names on this thread I told Bob and crew well done and my sentiments haven't changed. They did earn the right to hold on to or disseminate the info they obtained as they wish. My simple hope is that there is some respect shown for those who they know have already been there.
Uh...with all due respect, you have absolutely no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyonero
Someone once said to me "It does no good to curse the wind". With that in mind, I'd say it's only a matter of time before every slot, gully of a slot or anything that even resembles a slot has been explored. I'd guess that damn near everything significant already has. I wonder if 50 years from now the canyoneers of the period will be having conversations about this...to beta or not to beta. By then, I doubt there will be any secrets left. I say this in regards to the prior presence of humans leaving marks one way or another. "Pristine?" Well, you can wish in one hand and shit in the other.
Hate to say it, but I think you non-beta guys are a slowly dying breed.
As for the thrill of discovery, I stand by my original statement...go in blind and there you have it. Don't read about it, don't look it up online...just grab a 7.5, load up the pack and go. You can pretend you're a French explorer back in the 1700s.
BTW, the posts today are nice and reasonable. Everyone was very well stated, but I'd have to throw my hat in with what jman had to say.
Speaking of West Canyon, it appears that I will be between projects in June, which means time off.
Does anyone want to head to West Canyon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
I'm waiting for the beta to be published then I'm gonna invite my son's entire Boy Scout troop to go down with me. It's gonna be awesome!!!
All 500 Scouts - in one day?Quote:
Originally Posted by rockgremlin
Sounds like they need a permit...
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:roflol:Christ almighty!!! And I thought I was a smartass!Quote:
Originally Posted by rockgremlin
Scott...have you done any hiking in the area? Specifically Aztec Creek and Cummings Mesa? The overland route to West...or are you thinking of coming up from the lake?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
In June? Do you hate your life? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
Seriously though, do I have to buy my seat on the helicopter or are you covering it?
If think it's cute how poor people who can't afford a helicopter try to make those who can feel bad... Just a heads up, it's not working.Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingMan
Next up the guys who can't afford a boat will be bitching about how the route is degraded if you don't swim to West Canyon.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a helicopter drop off and pick up in West Canyon and that's pretty much the same thing.
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