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I have never heard of that but it sounds like it would work. I assume the most experienced one goes first now instead of last. I would also make sure there is a pretty big freakin knot tied in the end of the short length. I guess you could try this with both ends on the ground and then play the longer end through the device without risking rappeling off of the one end cool.
Mark
If I think I need a stopper knot, I'll use a figure eight (or overhand) on a bite. Might as well have a loop to clip into if need be. But, yeah, then you could just jam the knot into an ATC and go from there. I prefer to have some slack in the system, though, since that jammed knot will be kinda hard to undo at the bottom, compared to no knot but enough rope.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Yeah, easy to play with. Try it on a low angle slab with a highly positioned rappel anchor (one that doesn't drag the rope over an edge). Easy to "see" how it works.
Another kinda bad trick (ha ha) I've used when I don't have enough rope to touch the ground, but, kinda close...is to twist the rappel lines around enough (spin your whole self at the bottom of the rappel), that, while holding one end and allowing the other to pop through your rappel device, the whole mess sorta starts to unwind above you, while at the same time slowly, then rapidly lowering you to the ground. Not suitable for long drops! But, done it and it works in a pinch, when the fall is quasi survivable to begin with (say, less than 10 feet and a soft landing). Best practised over deep water...
Talk about stupid pet tricks...
Anyhoo...
-Brian in SLC
What happened to a simple "sheep shank" tied with the fixed end of the rope directly into the anchor, and then slice the middle of the "sheep shank"; rap on the 2 half hitches binding the sliced "sheep shank" and once at the bottom...shake the be-jeesus out of the rope to free the bottom end half hitch? God...canyoneering is so complex, yet with such simple methods as described above it could be so worry free! :ne_nau:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Seems I watched a home video of just this trick either on Bogley or some other forum a few years back of some kids that used this on the last drop in Pine Creek! It was pretty funny watching the guy go from a sitting position on rappel to a supine position and smack down (fortunately into water) hard from 15' above! Don't know how to retrieve the video, but I think he regretted his decision!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
This seems doable ( not twirling the rope but doubling the rope)on a atc but has anyone done this on a eight or piranha? Seems like you might have a problem with the ropes binding on each other.
Since I am sitting here bored what about this idea. Feed the rope through the anchor then tie it off to your belay loop. Drop the rope bag, now rappel on the bag strand which in turn would feed rope through rapide and allow you to rappel. When you got to the bottom the rope would be doubled for the next rappeller. Would put some extra wear on the rope. Anybody done this?
Seems like a easy way to double the rope if the rope is not rubbing the rock on the way over. You would also not take the chance of rappelling off of the short end. Just a thought.
Mark
Yeah, that's called a "pulley rappel", with the pulley being at the top. Kinda sorta works when it is a straight shot anchor to ground. Not so good if it crosses an edge somewhere. All that movement under load in the rapid link could tear it up good if the rope is wet and sandy. Also, the rope movement in the rapide COULD undo the gate of the rapide, resulting in loss of continuity - not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Or how about this, Mark. Tie off one end of the rope to the anchor, drop the bag. First person raps single line to the ground. Second person adjusts length of rope, with the help of the first, then does whatever!
Tom
Thats how we do it 99% of the time but we adjust the length when its time for the last one to go down. Seems like the easiest, fastest and simplest way to rig an anchor. When it comes time for the last guy to go and we do not think the rope will reach we just tie the other rope on and drop it.
Mark
What could be easier than rappin' single strand from a BD cliffhanger or Pika hook then shakin' the rope to release? Geez, I'll never use a pull cord again...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
-Brian in SLC
kamikaze knotQuote:
Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
:toofunny: :roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :hahaha: :lol-lol:
Actually it was a single strand on one side with a block and the other strand on the other side of the anchor with a separate block. There was only an inch or two between the blocks with the anchor in the middle. It worked pretty well but not sure if it is the"preferred" way to do it. Spidey was up at the top and simply undid one block and was last man down and we pulled.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Well, it shifts back and forth as the weight shifts from one strand to the other. Not the best, but acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
For more fun, put the biner blocks about a foot apart, and watch the kids squirm as they suddenly drop a foot when they gain the weight-advantage - ha ha ha!
You can also just "clip up" the pull side to the anchor. No shifting, still a high attachment point. Or learn that Stone Knot, Scott, very useful, quick to tie, quick to release.
Tom :rockon:
If I am understanding correctly, you have one rope, two anchors, and two blocks.
If there is tension on the rope between the two blocks due to having two people on rope at the same time, without slack (which seems to be suggested by the fact that it is shifting to the heavier person), then this seems to me to be no different than a death triangle and should be considered unsafe.
Here goes.... a non engineer trying to explain what we did. :eek2: At the last drop of Pine Creek there are two separate anchors that come together as one (a nice thought for Christmas). In other words you thread the one rope through the rapids then a block is set on each side of the rapid. What happened is that there was never two on the rope at the same time, or at least from more than a second or two. For what ever reason, the timing was really good with our group in that it took about exactly the same time for one to hook up, suck it up, and take the step of faith as the timing for the other person on rope to touch bottom. As for the death triangle, the rope is not independently anchored to separate anchors. The rope is blocked and not independently attached. I hope that helps and maybe I am missing your concern, let me know and the emperor will answer it for me. :lol8: p.s. I must find a description of the Stone Knot and check this out. **edit, I just checked out OzUltimate and Grog's Knots and it is not on there. Any other suggestions for the Stone Knot? I got nothing but time from 2 a.m. to 7 a.m. :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by nonot
Scott,
What you explained made sense. Head over to the aca's website and search stone knot.
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...ead.php?t=1216
This may take you there.
Mark
Scott the above address did not work for me so go to technical canyoneering on aca's site and look down about 15 posts and it's listed.
Here is another knot website, it doesn't list the stone knot but it is a great site.
http://animatedknots.com/indexclimbi...matedknots.com
Stein Knot courtesy of Mr. Carlson
http://www.canyoneering.net/content/...2_articleid=77
My concern would be if there is ever a person on each rope.
The strand each person is on weights the anchor. If there is tension between the two rapids (from two different anchors), then the tension also exerts additional force on each anchor.
In this case the total force on the anchors exceeds the weight of the people on the rope in the same manner as a death triangle.
This can be solved in several ways:
1) don't weight one strand until the person on the other strand reaches the bottom as it sounds you (mostly) did
2) instead of blocking on the outside of the two rapids, block the inside of the two rapids, ensuring there is a few feet of slack between the two blocks on the inside
3) Use webbing and a new rapid to equilize the two existing anchors, thread rope through the new rapid and block as you did above.
My .003 cents (adjusted for current economy)
A picture is worth a thousand words...
Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.
Tom
Tom,
On the stone knot pic why do you have a biner block?
Mark
The stone allows you to isolate each strand. Last person unties the stone and can rap down SRT because of the block on the red rope. If the last person went double strand they wouldn't need the biner block.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
I've also heard of a figure 8 being used for a "stone 8." I've never done this method so I can't talk about the pros or cons.