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Well, kinda, sorta. But really, the point is, if the ring is too large and there is even the remote possibility of the biner block pulling through, then you don't have a BLOCK, you have a land-mine-block or a pseudo-block, but you don't have a block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Tom
What would you think of putting up some pictures of what not to do? I noticed that every one of your biner blocks have either a safety or a substantial length of cord on the non-weighted side. Under the "Do Not" section you could have:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
-A picture of a biner block with only a few feet on the retrieval end - no backup.
-A biner block put on another biner as the anchor (which seems to be the cause of the fatality).
-A quicklink that is too large and will allow a block to slide through.
If you're wondering about my first suggestion, I saw some guys last summer in Spry that were doing something that looked both smart and dumb all at the same time. They ran about five feet of their rope through the rap ring, put a biner block on it, and then rappelled on the long end. Yes, it held, but use of a biner block without a backup or a substancial lenth or rope behind it didn't seem completely secure to me. On the other hand, it worked well because it got they first guy down the rope with a reasonable assurance that he would reach bottom with rope to spare, but with no solid way to keep the rope from sliding on the clove hitch it seemed risky. What are your thoughts?
I think a couple pair of vice grips and a MAPP gas torch would do the trick. Heat up the nut on the quicklink and the vice grips should have no trouble breaking the threads loose. Or, if I remember correctly, the big quicklink is just through a smaller quicklink. Take the smaller link off, taking the big link with it, and replace them with a climb spec quicklink.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I think a couple pair of vice grips and a MAPP gas torch would do the trick. Heat up the nut on the quicklink and the vice grips should have no trouble breaking the threads loose. Or, if I remember correctly, the big quicklink is just through a smaller quicklink. Take the smaller link off, taking the big link with it, and replace them with a climb spec quicklink.
_________________
I seem to recall when I went through Mystery a week ago, the large rapide was connected to a 5/16 quicklink. This was at Mystery Springs. We used a large Williams or similar for a block. Why would anyone use this large rapide in the first place? Better pull with a large diameter rope?
Mike C.
Easier rope pull, or a larger cross section so the link wears slower :ne_nau: . It didn't mean an easier rope pull for me last time I did Mystery. I used a knot block (backed up properly of course). The knot jammed in the large quicklink and we had a devil of a time getting it loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C.
Never mind.
It has been a while since I have done Mystery but if I remember right the anchor is made of chains not webbing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Patterson
Oh yeah. :oops: Never mind.Quote:
It has been a while since I have done Mystery but if I remember right the anchor is made of chains not webbing.
Quote:
What would you think of putting up some pictures of what not to do? I noticed that every one of your biner blocks have either a safety or a substantial length of cord on the non-weighted side. Under the "Do Not" section you could have:
-A picture of a biner block with only a few feet on the retrieval end - no backup.
-A biner block put on another biner as the anchor (which seems to be the cause of the fatality).
-A quicklink that is too large and will allow a block to slide through.
If you're wondering about my first suggestion, I saw some guys last summer in Spry that were doing something that looked both smart and dumb all at the same time. They ran about five feet of their rope through the rap ring, put a biner block on it, and then rappelled on the long end. Yes, it held, but use of a biner block without a backup or a substancial lenth or rope behind it didn't seem completely secure to me. On the other hand, it worked well because it got they first guy down the rope with a reasonable assurance that he would reach bottom with rope to spare, but with no solid way to keep the rope from sliding on the clove hitch it seemed risky. What are your thoughts?
Rope doesn't slide on a properly tied clove hitch or it would not be a suitable knot for a block. I would trust a clove with 5 feet of tail, but I wouldn't use it (if that makes sense?) because I would never have ocassion to do that, based on how I use biner blocks. (The clove hitch biner block is definitely one of those "freak out the uninitiated" knots, like the EDK, that leaves the uninitiated saying "Shouldn't we tie some more knots on that thing?".)
I rarely use a clove hitch block without a backup, except for on the last person down (me, if I set up the anchor) and even then having someone tied into the pull side is a good idea that I've sometimes used. Before the last one or two down, its easy enough to tie a figure eight on a bight and clip that into a bomber anchor, or back it up to another anchor near by (I don't hesitate to use a couple live bodies for a backup where there is a braceable position; but some people take issue with that); or even better, use a contingency anchor. For the last man or two down, the pull chord is lowerd and tested. I like to have two people to visually confirm the final setup, then one goes with a backup and tests and then the final one goes without having to rerig much or anything. If you're the last man down, I think its a great idea to have someone set a belay on the pull strand.
So, yeah, redundancy is important, but not having it shouldn't be classified in the same category as your second and third suggestion.
Related story #1: Once, in my earliest days of biner blocks, I clipped in the rope as a backup and forgot to unclip the rope as I rappelled down. Needless to say, I was immediately ascending back up to fix my rigging once we tried to pull and I realized what I'd done. Luckily it was a short, pretty easily ascendable rappel. Since then I've become meticulous double and triple checker, especially when i'm the last man down.
Related story #2: When Eric and I did Heaps, Eric went down on our tied off 300 (we carried it through, drybagged), and then I tied our two 150's together on the pull side and carefully lowered them to him. He then pulled the knot out past the nasty rope catching lip and tied that pull side to himself or a large boulder. Someone else took care of a fireman belay. Note that we were using rope on the pull side, NOT thin pull cord. We liked this because he rappelled off a tied-in (at the top) anchor and I rappelled off a tied-in (at the bottom) anchor , with the added benefit of having all our knots/biners out past the lip. The rope was threaded through the chain, nothing fancy. Don't take this to mean thats the right way to do the final Heaps rappel. You should already know exactly how to do that for yourself and evaluate for yourself whether you like or don't like this technique... it has its pros and cons that I won't elaborate.
PS.
I like to think of the acronym CHAD when double checking things at every rappel. When I'm a group leader with less-experienced folk I do it for others or try and have them do it. Carabiner (twisted shut), Harness (doubled back), Anchor (checked, depends on the anchor what I'm looking for, but always make sure that you are rappelling on the right strand and the block is set up properly) Device (Make sure the rope is threaded correctly through my rappel device and it's attached to my harness). Unfortunately the name Chad has no special significance for me so I find myself remembering the four things I check and then remembering what the Acronym was :)
Some good points, thanks Ben.
OK, since we are talking about tying into a pull chord for the last person down. What kind of impact would that be to that person if the biner/edk/fishermans pull thru? Say on a 300 ft. drop?
Well assuming they're treating it like they are anchoring/belaying the rappeller (IE no slack whatsoever) then I don't see how it would impact them at all, besides possibly giving them a little tug, regardless of the height. I wouldn't do this with a pull rope that I wouldn't also rappel on. I don't want to be responsible for advocating a non standard practice. If it doesn't make sense to you then please don't do it.
I have been told that the 6mm can take a 3,000 lb shock. Can anyone confirm that?
Also being new to the sport, Why not rappel of both the pull cord and the rope. EXAMPLE: You have a 100ft rappel. You tie the two ropes together at the top, mabey even biner block the rope. you put the pull cord (120 ft, 6mm) and put the rope (120 ft, 9 mm) through your ATC or whatever.
The downside I could see is that it might be hard to control two different sizes of rope through the device. I haven't practiced this yet, but it came up in discussion.
Rappelling on different diameters of anything is not a good idea. In fact it is potentially a terrible idea! While as long as you had it blocked right you'd probably be fine, getting the block or knot on the wrong side of the anchor (Note: make sure your bigger rope is going through the rapides!) could easily result in death, as people believe it did in the case of a local climber (sad story, I've met his family) rappelling off different diameter ropes after having climbed Angel's Landing in the 90s. What would happen (likely happened) is this: Your thicker rope would have more friction than the thinner cord, so the cord passes through the device faster than the thicker. You rappel off the end of your cord before you are at the ground. Even if you did block it right and managed to get down without a mess, you'd find your pull cord twisting with your rope. Always keep them seperate .Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
Thanks for the tip. I never thought of the twisting and friction thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rock_ski_cowboy
Christiansen at around 1a.m. near new years eve, I seem to recall. After soloing Prodigal Son, instead of hauling the last pitch to the walk off, chose to rappel off instead. They think the skinny rope/fat rope combo is what caused the rope ends to be uneven, but, regardless (and no one will really know), he missed the rope end and it slipped through his rap device. In other words, had less to do with rope diameter differences than it did rapping off the end of his rope. Couple different ways to have prevented that tragic accident, to be sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by rock_ski_cowboy
But, rappelling on different size cords is commonly done, with no ill effects at all. Sure, watch the different friction on the skinny cord and how it could effect the rope ends. But, its very commonly done by climbers who use a tag line, or, skinny static (or different size lead cords used together in the newer hybrid pairing that'll be more popular soon in the future).
I routinely rap on both a 6mm tied into a 9.4mm. Just watch in case the knot at the top moves, and keep an eye on the rope ends (which a person should do anyway, regardless of the diameter of the ropes).
I don't find twisting to be an issue with different diameter rope pairings.
Very very rarely do I rappel two ropes of the same diameter...unless I'm climbing on doubles or twins (also rare, except maybe ice climbing).
Also, with a biner block or knot block, you can clip the biner or knot back into the rappel line, creating a closed loop that might be more difficult to pull, but, it won't pull through. I do this when I want the rappel line to follow my pull cord when I pull the ropes down. Works great.
Part of me hates the thought that all the big rapides out there that don't support a biner block by being too big are going to be changed out for smaller ones. That'll make for more friction and more change outs of the smaller rapides due to wear. Not sure why folks always have to use a block, rather than just rappelling double (unless a knot is to be avoided ala the last Heaps rappel).
Anyhoo...
-Brian in SLC
I'm with Brian, Seldom do I rappel on two ropes of the same diameter. I also will add my pull chord to the equation if I want more friction (while blocking the rappel line).... seems a much better method of adding friction than some of the mickey mouse methods I see being used. I've never had a problem with my lines twisting, but I use an ATC.
Personally I think biner blocks are being over used. Some folks biner block every rappel. I've also had problems with biner blocks causing wear spots in the sheath when pulled. We ruined a couple of ropes in Arches last winter because of biner blocks.
YMMV
Brian: concerning the discussion on the large rapides. I know for a fact that the one in Mystery is serving no purpose whatsoever. There is a medium sized one that does just great. The overly large one is just an accident ready to happen.
Serving no purpose? Isn't it the rappel anchor point? That's not "no" purpose, but, a primary one?Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce from bryce
Only an accident waiting to happen if you biner block?
Otherwise, if you rappel on two cords tied together (or, maybe a 70m rope doubled), then that big rapide would work just fine.
In the climbing world, big rapides are considered better. But, climbers rarely (if ever) biner block.
I just hate the thought that a technique is forcing the rappel anchors to be smaller and less strong, with more friction and more chance of sticking a rope, and less useful life from a wear standpoint. Plus, any diameter rope will be fine in a large rapide, versus, some small rapides will have a hard time accomodating a large diameter rope.
I'll say, that if the only advantage to a smaller rapide is that it accomodates a biner block, then, find another technique to use.
Plus, you get more friction from two ropes when you rappel. Easier to control. Less chance for wear (sheath burn throughs) on one rope.
-Brian in SLC
Forgive my ignorance here. I use biner blocks because that is what I have learned from people I have gone canyoneering with. If climbers rarely use biner blocks I am guessing they use some sort of knot block. What kind of knot (or knots) do they use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Or do they usually rappel double strand? If that is the case then I suppose the knot doesn't necessarily have to block right next to the rapide.