Maybe "occupation" of a resource is a more appropriate word. The idea is still the same... National Park land is set aside for public enjoyment, not for private companies to make money off of.Quote:
How is guiding people in a Park consumption?
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Maybe "occupation" of a resource is a more appropriate word. The idea is still the same... National Park land is set aside for public enjoyment, not for private companies to make money off of.Quote:
How is guiding people in a Park consumption?
Excuse me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn_dude
The permit system is there to limit social interactions, so people visiting the park will have the Wilderness experience the park has decided is appropriate for us.
The rest is window dressing and post-decision justification.
Are you volunteering? You have WFR or WEMT cert? How many days a week are you available?
Tom
I think you're crossing stories there... I spent the night at Big Bend on the tarmac, enjoying the stars and my 101 deg fever...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Tom
Intelligent people can disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRG
"Consumption" and "Occupation" are words of exclusive use. One problem with extractive industries is they tend to make the resource undesirable for all other users. National Forests - the Land of Many Uses - are an example. Once clear cut, the 'forest' is no longer of much use to anyone else for quite some time. Is this how you feel about guided groups?
People who prefer to use guides are members of the public too. The couple involved in this incident probably would have preferred being guided through the Subway, rather than taking a class, then self-guiding. Are you choosing to exclude these citizens from visiting The Subway because they lack the technical skills needed, that they could hire for a reasonable fee, were it allowed, because it offends your sense of propriety?
There is a family of deaf persons that we sometimes guide. Though they are competent canyoneers, they choose to do technical canyons with a hearing guide because it seems wise, and they can afford it. The Park has (on one occasion) given them a special use permit to be guided inside the Park. Does this offend your sense of propriety?
Visiting Yosemite, are you disgusted knowing that up there on El Cap, there is likely a pair of climbers, one of which is a professional climbing guide leading a client?
I find it a strange sense of propriety that professionals assisting citizens in visiting their national parks, catalyzing a deeper, more meaningful experience is somehow tawdry.
Perhaps you could include people who prefer to use guides INSIDE your tent of worthy persons.
Zion National Park and the Zion Field Institute lead interpretive hikes every day. Does this upset your sense of propriety?
The National Park has staff, to assist visitors. Does this upset your sense of propriety?
The highway through the Park is my shortest route to Springdale. Sometimes I drive through the Park to get to Springdale to pick up or drop off ropes or packs for customers. Does this upset your sense of propriety?
Inside Zion National Park is a hotel, with people working there, cooking burgers, cleaning rooms. Does this upset your sense of propriety?
:facepalm1:
Tom
Hah, my "tent of worthy persons"? I made it clear that my argument was principle based and at no point did I judge the merits of hiring a guide.Quote:
Perhaps you could include people who prefer to use guides INSIDE your tent of worthy persons.
C'monnnnn. Don't try and make it sound like I want to deny your deaf clients their right to see the canyons just because you and I have different views on the proper use of National Park lands. I think your deaf clients should be granted a special use permit without question every time they want to canyoneer.Quote:
There is a family of deaf persons that we sometimes guide.
Again, I'm not judging the guide/guidee experience.Quote:
I find it a strange sense of propriety that ... experience is somehow tawdry.
I think these super polarized examples are inane. I understand that some commerce is going to happen in National Parks and I'm okay with it, I'm not an extremist. I do however feel that there is a line, and commercial guiding is over that line.Quote:
The National Park has staff, to assist visitors. Does this upset your sense of propriety?
The highway through the Park is my shortest route to Springdale. Sometimes I drive through the Park to get to Springdale to pick up or drop off ropes or packs for customers. Does this upset your sense of propriety?
-Sam
I'm sooo glad to see Tom encouraging guiding in the National park and utilizing it's resources!
Now about the guiding permit for deer, elk, mountain lion, bear harvest.
Or does Tom only selectively want guiding that benefits him and his millionaire boss?
Nah--couldn't be to help out the millionaire boss, both Tom and Hank despise rich folks.
So, back on subject, would guiding have saved this poor mans life?? We'll never know.
Was a guide companies teaching technique at least partly at fault? I say theres a case.
Yes you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRG
I'm asking for an argument as to why this is something the people of America should not enjoy in their National Parks. (In most Parks, they do).
My apologies for the "extension to absurdity". But I am trying to tease out where you draw the line. OK as long as they are Park employees? Hotels OK but guides not?
The distinction makes no sense to me, so I look for you to look inside your head and explain why guiding is tawdry but other people making money off the tourists is not? Or which ones are and which ones are not.
----
I also am trying to point out that there is a LOT of commercial activities inside National Parks, so I wonder how this effects your experience and why you single out guides ando/or Zion for your argument of principle?
Tom
Then why don't you? Many of the rangers are volunteers anyway, are they not?Quote:
We(a risk management class) joking suggested sending a ranger as a sweep later in the day, i'd take that job!
Also, having something like that may also produce more people that expect to be helped. "Hey lets start the Subway at noon. If we don't make it by dark, the ranger will come and help us".
Having assured (or percieved assurance) rescue causes people to take more risk. This has already been proven many times in many locations throughout the world, from the Himalaya to the Alps to our National Parks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, as far as guiding goes, my opinion is that the Subway is just too crowded/popular of a route to guide. It could be argued that the guide also has the same right as an independent person in doing the Subway, and that every person in the canyon is equal in making the canyon crowded, but the independent person (at least in theory) is there primarily to see the canyon/experience the beauty/challenge (which guides might also enjoy) rather than for employment. For every small group of clients, a guide would another person to an already popular route that has already seen the canyon many times and may not be there primarily to experience the canyon, while the clients and independent people would likely only go a few times a year at most. If the Subway wasn't so popular and didn't need quotas, it might be different. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.
Am switching focus to a paragraph that has appeared in the news accounts: A canyoneer from a group that had passed the couple earlier in the day had called park dispatchers at 9 p.m. to tell them that at their current pace, Hosobuchi and his wife would probably have to spend the night in the canyon. Based on that, rangers began looking for the overdue couple on Wednesday morning and ran into Hosobuchi’s wife on the trail about 11:45 a.m. as she was hiking out.
I imagine that caller had just gotten into cel phone range when the call was made. Did the caller merely want to give the park a no cause for alarm heads up or was the caller anticipating that immediate assistance would be rendered. Might be enlightening to hear from that caller. Perhaps that group did offer to accompany the doctor and his wife and the couple indicated that they were prepared for a bivy if necessary and waved that group on.
In a case of a medical emergency such as a broken bone, I would think that an overtaking group would provide any assistance needed. Actually, I know they would because I've read of such accounts on this forum. But what do you do if you were to encounter someone headed for unplanned after dark travel. Do you offer up matches, flashlight, space blanket?
What if the person's not in immediate distress, but likely soon to suffer consequences of heat exhaustion or dehydration. Do you continue on your way hoping for the best or do you hang around offering support?
The doctor's spouse might ultimately tell the story of their last adventure together, but a lot of grief must be borne first.
I didn't imply that guiding was tawdry, I implied that it is a business transaction where one person pays someone else for a service. It's a private company charging for access to land... and because it is National Park land I think it's wrong.Quote:
why guiding is tawdry
In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service(in theory "the people").
Please save me almighty government from anything bad that might every happen to me. And if it does, please send me a check in the mail for putting myself at risk and getting hurt. Without hunting there would be way fewer animals. Without guides there would be way fewer hikers. Without as many hikers there wouldn't be large "profitable" companies making all this cool and safe gear we use to explore new canyons and enjoy the existing ones. I am going to go as much as I can before the government and environmentalists shut all of it down on the slowly but methodial course they are on. When it comes down to it, we all need to join together to fight against these forces or hopefully you took a lot pictures that you can sit back and enjoy
NPS Morning Report
Wednesday, September 26, 2012
Zion National Park (UT)
Man Dies In Canyoneering Accident
On Wednesday, September 19th, 2012 park rangers determined that Yoshio Hosobuchi, age 74, had died while descending the Left Fork of the North Creek, a popular canyoneering route known as The Subway. Rangers began to look for Hosobuchi and his wife, based on a report from another hiker who was concerned the couple might be caught by darkness. Rangers made contact with Hosobuchi’s wife on the trail who reported Hosobuchi had flipped upside down while rappelling the previous evening and she had been unable to free him. The couple was at the last obstacle of the technical portion of the canyon, a 15-foot rappel, and chose to use an anchor different from the one listed in the route description. The anchor they chose increased the difficulty of the rappel as the location is overhung, free-hanging and in an active waterfall. Hosobuchi’s wife completed the rappel first. Hosobuchi was using a Blue Water VT below his rappel device and attached to his leg loop as a backup. Hosobuchi began his rappel when he flipped upside down, possibly due to the weight of his pack. It appears that when Hosobuchi inverted, the VT slid into the rappel device and jammed it. Due to the overhung and free-hanging nature of the location, Hosobuchi had no leverage to assist in righting himself even after he dropped his pack and his wife pulled on the rope to attempt to move him sideways, towards a wall. Hosobuchi then attempted to free himself by cutting the waist belt of his harness. When he cut through the waist belt, the leg loops of his harness slid down and caught around his ankles and canyoneering boots. Hosobuchi was now hanging upside down from his ankles in an active waterfall approximately 6 feet off the ground. Hosobuchi’s wife repeatedly attempted to pull him free from his harness by pulling on his hands, but was unable to free him from the harness before leaving him to seek help. Rangers reached Hosobuchi in the late afternoon of September 19 and confirmed that he had not survived. A helicopter from the Grand Canyon recovered his body the following morning. Rangers worked closely with Washington County Sheriff’s office and the local medical examiner on the investigation.
[Submitted by Therese Picard, Canyon District Ranger]
[QUOTE=erial;512115]Am switching focus to a paragraph that has appeared in the news accounts: A canyoneer from a group that had passed the couple earlier in the day had called park dispatchers at 9 p.m. to tell them that at their current pace, Hosobuchi and his wife would probably have to spend the night in the canyon. Based on that, rangers began looking for the overdue couple on Wednesday morning and ran into Hosobuchi
So it is the Z crew's fault again :lol8:
Thank you for clarifying your position.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRG
It is not paying "to access the land", it is paying for a certain specific expertise, that the buyer is willing to pay for.
I see how some could think that making money off of activities in a National Park is something we should not encourage. This is essentially ZNP's position, that commercial activities in the BACKCOUNTRY are inappropriate. It is somewhat anomolous in the NPS system, though, and it seems a bit strange to ME that in the ZNP plans, they don't even consider discussion of it, they state as fact (or perhaps, as policy) that commercial activity in the ZNP backcountry is inappropriate.
In many parks, there is commercial activity in the backcountry. In Grand Canyon National Park there is guided hiking and guided river rafting, as in, a LOT of guided river rafting. There is nothing in the Wilderness Act that prohibits commercial activity. There is nothing in the Organic Act and other Acts of Congress that prohibit or limit commercial activity in Wilderness areas or National Parks, but then it becomes part of the management plan for each unit as to how they approach commercial activity.
Thus, across the whole system, there is a lot of commercial activity in NPS Wilderness. I'm not sure what the point of pointing that out, other than that I hope you are not too disappointed that your viewpoint is not in effect in very many NPS units.
"In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service (in theory "the people")."
So you are OK with people making a living by showing the Park to people, but have an objection to the capitalistic idea of people making a profit by creating the opportunity for people to make a living by showing the Park to people? Seems an odd distinction to make.
Anyone else interested in weighing in?
Tom
I don't see a big difference between "national park" "National forest". "BLM land". It is all land owned by the "government" that is protected for the people's use. Why one can be guided and others not is obviously not controlled by any law but only by the persons presiding over their specific tract of land. I love Zion and all national parks but I don't hold them in any higher regard than any other piece of land. I will guarantee that I've had more enjoyable times spent outside of parks than in. As long as it is fair to all involved then I am happy. Fair is definitely subjective but is usually located in the middle. Wilderness study areas right now are my biggest pet peave These areas are being closed to motor vehicle access which is only allowing a select few people who are willing to hike in to enjoy the areas. Canaan mountain being the closest to heart right now. There is an existing road that has been there for 100 years that is now shut down. I have been there a few times but now it's an 8 hour hike in. Totally illegal closure but it still happened. Snow Canyon state park is closed to off trail hiking. Does it end anywhere?Cedar Breaks is closed to making snowmobile tracks (yeah those last forever)
Deathcricket,
The details you provided from the Z-crew as well as details contained within Iceaxe's post of the NPS report clarified my understanding of this accident. Thank you for your response. jeff
Np here is a classic pic they took at the pools. Kinda weird to think a couple hours later a person is going to die not 50 feet behind them. Creepy IMO. :cold:
Not Z crew's fault:lol8:... but probably my parents have something to do with it. It's a double edged sword. Without my parents, my wife and I would never get to go canyoneering (Trusting babysitters all day or overnight? Forget about it.)
Every time we are a little bit late getting out of a canyon (Heaps, one day late... Orderville 6 hours late with a friend's blown knee.... probably other canyons as well) my parents start calling the backcountry desk to send them out after us. My wife and I have never given them instructions to call-- quite the opposite. We usually give two times, best case and worst case. But my parents can't help but call a few hours after the best case. They worry because they are my parents; they worry because they don't want to raise my kids. I get it.
Blame me. There is no way SAR can mobilize every time everyone reports a missing, slow, or limping along party in a canyon. I'm sure my parents aren't the only ones out there who call in at the drop of the hat. (When we spent a night in Heaps a few years ago my dad got onto the internet and found this: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/201003/slickrock.aspx this:http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/...nical/preface/ and this:http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...s-Canyon/page2
This is a man who regularly calls for help when he needs to search the internet. Why was he suddenly so able to search the internet on that night?) Reading about Ralston doesn't help either.
I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I can't be the only one who has this problem. Can I? This last time through Imlay we told them that we would be 3 full days-- best case. They bought it.
Don't forget all the commercial guiding in rafts in the Grand Canyon and other NP rivers. I've enjoyed both commercial and private rafting trips and I would not want to see the commercial ones banned. But, I would not argue that by inference all types of guiding should be allowed in all NPs. Teaching rock climbing at Yosemite; ice & snow climbing on Mt. Rainier; birding guides at South Padre Island. I think there's lots of places where it works well and makes sense. But I would not personally want to see it in Zion
Hell of a tragic accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Not that I'd care to get a knife anywhere near something like this, but, I've found that some of these materials, versus nylon, are really hard to cut. And, this VT rig is 8mm too. Thick. Probably not easy to cut free if need be. Hmmm. Not sure how viable that would have been if the autoblock had been 6mm or 7mm nylon...Quote:
The BlueWater VT prusik was designed in conjunction with Rich Carlson of the American Canyoneering Academy specifically for canyoneering applications. A super tough and heat resistant Technora aramid sheath covers durable nylon core strands. Bartacked with our custom Technora thread for superior strength. Available exclusively from Canyons and Crags. Diameter: 8mm
I carry the Sterling hollow block thing for prusiking. Handy (have used to ascend a fixed rope). I think it'd be a bummer to try to cut off the rope. Maybe not possible without chopping the lead line.
What a horrible accident. I can't imagine...heavy sigh...(X 100).
NOT suitable for that application.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
With no core, once somewhat used, the Hollow Bloc has a very unknowable strength. We had one break in practice when one of our guides was using it as a prusik (fell to the floor, like 2 feet, no harm no foul).
So I would NEVER use them for prusiks. Very dangerous.
Used as an autobloc, they are below the rappel device and only experience "brake-hand" level of forces, not bodyweight.
Lack of general usefulness is a big reason ZAC converted to VT Prusiks... in the never-ending quest for the perfect autobloc cord. :naughty:
Tom
TomQuote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I am with you.
If you can hire a guide to take you up the Nose on El Capitan in Yosemite National Park, The Grand Teton in the Grand Teton National Park, or to the summit of Mt Rainer National Park, why shouldn't there be commercial guiding in Zion National Park?
This is really a policy that does not favor members of the public and their ability to enjoy the back country, especially visitors who live far from canyon country. Finding the subway without someone who has perviously been in the canyon is intimidating for example.
If the concern is that a guide service will use up all the permits, one can use the rule that is applied to the Wave: the client has to get their own permit and a license guide can accompany the client. (Obviously there are many other potential solutions).
Some of the benefits of having professional guides is modeling low impact canyoneering, anchor maintenance, increased surveillance in the canyon by requiring guides to carry appropriate radios.
Unfortunately, in my life time, I don't think I will ever see this in Zion National Park and I think that is a shame.
Ken
Not banned, but commercial trips do have an unfair advantage. Paying clients should have the same chance/waiting list (which has been mostly done away with) as private parties. To make it fair, commercial clients should have to get their own permits on trips that have big waiting list/lotteries.Quote:
Don't forget all the commercial guiding in rafts in the Grand Canyon and other NP rivers. I've enjoyed both commercial and private rafting trips and I would not want to see the commercial ones banned.
My dad was on the waiting list for many, many years until they started charging to keep your name on there (which policies have again been modified). However, if you have thousands of dollars you can just sign up with a commerical tour immediately and and they are given preference (since they were hogging most of the permits). Not fair at all. Guided clients and private boaters should have equal chances for permits. It would be fair then.
I have been using my scrap pieces of the imlay 6mm pull cord for prusiks. It is slick at first but once it's broken in a little bit it seems to work well
The Imlay 6mm cord is designed to be hard and stiff. Other 6mm cord will work better as a prusik.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2065toyota
Tom
Whoa...really? Really? Mine seems burly, and, I've had two of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Sterling says:
Strength is listed as 14kN.Quote:
The Hollow Block is a unique sewn prusik or climb heist made from our RIT 900™ cord. This hollow braid cord is made of 100% aramid fiber, giving it added strength, durability and gripping power on rope 7mm and larger. It is sewn with Sterling’s proprietary sewing pattern.
Were you guys using older models, or, prototypes? They totally sell this thing for Prusiking with no restrictions.
Broke, as in, the sewing failed or the thing broke in the body?
Really?? Have you talked to Sterling? "Very dangerous"? Yikes.
And, I've jugged with it (in combo with a Gri Gri). Worked great.
Broke as in broke in the body.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Admittedly, a well-used one. I can see them being 14kN when new, but...
Technora abrades against itself. So, after a lot of use, a fair amount of those technora fibers are cut.
I would perhaps trust them when new, but it is hard to say when "when new" changes to the untrustworthy "no longer new".
I am surprised they say that.
Tom
The Hollow Block is made with Sterling RIT, which is intended as a personal escape rope, single use only. Fireman use it to bail out of burning buildings. Aramid fibers have high melting points. In fact, Technora doesn't really melt; it starts to char around 950 degrees. Flex endurance issues don't matter if you're only going to use it once. Not sure why Sterling agreed to use this cord for an item that is expected to be used many times.
VT has a nylon core, so even if the aramid sheath fails you will still have the strength of the core to get you to the ground.
It should be noted that we use the Hollowblocs until they are fully used up.
Pic of some used ones - "close to retirement".
I doubt Mr. Cabe would consider using one of these as a prusik.
Tom
Wow, those are pretty chewed up. My thought is that a well set Prusik doesn't really slip much, while an autoblock slips by design, location and use.
Yeah, mine looks pretty new.
Good head's up, though. Thanks!
Once it goes beyond "very light fuzzing" and shows any sign of concentrated wear, however slight, I'd ditch it. Actually, i'd just ditch it now (unless used only for autobloc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPv8E...ature=youtu.be
Here is a video of the spot taken 12 days prior to the fatality.
Nice. That clarifies quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by summitseeker
Note, this is not "Keyhole Falls". Keyhole Falls is the rappel prior to this, where you rappel across the waterway from a small arch (the Keyhole). Some people downclimb through the Keyhole. When upclimbing, the easiest route is through the Keyhole.
Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Structurally are there any problems with it? Just curious because we soon some practicing of climbing ropes and every person preferred the pull cord. I don't know exactly what we were comparing it to but they were pre seen cords for prusiks or autoblocks. I always had to use 4 wraps but I'm 200 lbs and it didn't slip and released well. I thought it would be better to use them since that rope isn't designed to absorb water. Thanks for the input
Thanks for posting the video. :2thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by summitseeker
FWIW: The video calls this waterfall "Keyhole Falls", which is incorrect. Keyhole falls is the rappel before this with the small arch (the keyhole).
Leroyed.... :angryfire:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Hmmm, interesting...Quote:
Originally Posted by 2065toyota
No, no structural issue.
I don't use prusiks much, so I am not really "in" on the details, but I thought generally people like a softish prusik cord so it grabs well. My 6mm pull cord is quite hard; and maybe it works well because it does not grab all that well. You can always add wraps for more bite, while often the problem with prusiks is getting a consistent release.
Hmmm.
Tom
I don't know why so many people persist with prusiks as a friction knots...
There are myriad other knots that grab more readily, release much more predictably, don't bind, and are faster to tie. All equaling greater safety. The prusik has its place in rescue belays but I don't believe in it for personal safety applications...
What are these other knots?