American Canyon Guides Association ACGA

He also dismissed the only questions and ideas about the future direction of the ACA. The thread is turning into a reflection of Rich's ego which is the worst possible outcome. The forum has served as a supplement to his ego for years. If he is successful, and his has been in the past, than the he will create a rally of enough folks to make him stay. That would be a bad outcome.

The direction of the future ACA appears to be filtered through Rich's bias. That is already manifesting itself on the thread designed to poll the next possible leader. Anyone outside his circle of influence is gonna have to be real savvy to avoid being ousted by his incessant filtering.

ah, perfect. when i looked at it the first time, it was there, not there the second. here's the updated link - http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...4872-Piss-Ants

is this just another of rich's attempts to look for sympathy? it's like deja vu every six months at the ACA. he threatens to quit, a few people express their undying love and affection for him, and he stays on again... only to repeat the process yet again.

i think the statement i made early on in this thread has turned out to be rather prophetic... "As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

thanks yet again for giving us a lovely glimpse into the delusional world of rich carlson! stay classy! :eek2:

it's a shame you didn't leave it up long enough for everyone to get a look at the side of rich carlson we've all come to love over the years. :facepalm1:

---

Still there. Just moved it to its own "Piss Ant" thread -- http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...4872-Piss-Ants

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

ah,

i think the statement i made early on in this thread has turned out to be rather prophetic... "As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly"

---

So a Carpey repeats his folly?

So, Rich, how are specific business question "irrelevant and moot"? If you are actually handing over control and letting a vote decide than why have you already minimized the responses of the only two people who have engaged the directives of the thread?

Love the "professional student" idea.....hehe. Another shallow jab. In case you were curious, didn't go to college from fall 2009 to Summer 2011 because of medical bills associated with my rare disease known as Ischemic Optic Neuropathy. Spent that time getting back to work and paying off medical bills. Just returned this summer to finnish my degree (finally!). Graduating with one extra semester under my belt because I had to withdraw mid semester in 2009 when I lost the majority of my peripheral vision.

As far as a fellow student believing I am a piss ant....who cares. I am learning and actually reading the assigned material.

Best of luck, Rich. I have no doubt that you will actually do better with "Canyons and Crags". Its a shame you never chose to engage my ideas and instead just insulted me; didn't need to go down that way. The entire series of threads started when you failed to accept a compliment. Actually happened twice now, when I was trying to defend the potential of the ACGA.

Phillip

Just for those who are curious....Back of Beyond is James Milligan, Rich's intern. He is also the other student who Rich claims believes I am a piss ant from his shared time in a course at SUU.

Phillip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by restrac2000

This "PissAnt" has been officially banned from the ACA forum for asking relevant questions that have been deemed "ignorant and moot". For those wishing either to see success with the ACA or possibly take it over I would suggest using the ACA forum to ask the important, pertinent business questions that make or break its future direction.

---

Phillip, just let it go. I think the ACA is beyond repair now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by restrac2000

Just for those who are curious....Back of Beyond is James Milligan, Rich's intern. He is also the other student who Rich claims believes I am a piss ant from his shared time in a course at SUU.

Phillip

---

You solved another mystery! Good boy Happy Feet. I'm pretty sure who I am is old news, To clarify the words Piss Ant in association with Phillip have never crossed my lips. Another case of you having the wrong fact, I will go out on a ledge and assume you are referring to me as the fellow student who is not learning or reading the assigned material. This is another assumption on your behalf.

Let me end where I began....:facepalm1: The costumes have come off and yes, this is officially, in my humble opinion, a Rich bashing thread. Pathetic really. Very little to do with the ACA really and virtually nothing to do with the ACGA in this thread. :facepalm1:

For the record, I still see great value in the ACA. The product is still very very good. I personally think the name and the trained ACA certified guides still carry a bunch of clout. I may be wrong but just my opinion.

And wow, I am not sure I have ever seen anyone so consumed with so much nastiness towards another human being (OK I have but not over something that is fun like canyoneering. Not like a divorce here people). Getting miffed or your feelings hurt is one thing but holy cow..... let it go.

Thank you Rich for all your years of hard work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :hail2thechief::hail2thechief::hail2thechief::hail 2thechief::hail2thechief::hail2thechief::hail2thec hief::hail2thechief::hail2thechief::hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:


All this drama must be hard to deal with. I wish you the best of luck in whatever it is that you decided to do.

Sorry if my previous comments leant to the idea that others were not reading or learning, that was unintentional wording (i.e. I was saying I don't care how others view me as I am getting what I need out of the class). I did assume it was you Rich was referring to......the problem with him being so ambiguous is I have to guess. Seems to fair to guess on my part when a character assasination is going on at canyoneering.net. So it goes, I was wrong. Guess there are more Rich allies there than I knew.

Phillip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by backofbeyond

So a Carpey repeats his folly?

---

absolutely. it's a reflection of the whole "community." i know you are new to the scene, and probably don't quite understand all the politicking or backstories, but this has been happening ever since i can remember (2007 is when i came into the scene, so i'm still not as jaded as the folks who've been around it for a decade...) but, it's always the same. people try to pay rich a compliment, he spins it into something full of drama, people try to engage him to discuss the situation, he throws a fit and goes ape shit, never answers any questions, alienates a whole bunch more people, threatens to quit, and then a handful of people jump in and tell him he is god, he suddenly gets another shot of confidence, reaffirms his commitment to the ACA, only for the whole shitshow to repeat yet again in 6 months...

so yes, safe to say i've contributed to that cycle. i just hope this is the last dying gasps before it all just dies, and the ACA disappears for good. :2thumbs:

I just lost the desire to ever try a canyon.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Let me end where I began....:facepalm1: The costumes have come off and yes, this is officially, in my humble opinion, a Rich bashing thread. Pathetic really. Very little to do with the ACA really and virtually nothing to do with the ACGA in this thread. :facepalm1:

For the record, I still see great value in the ACA. The product is still very very good. I personally think the name and the trained ACA certified guides still carry a bunch of clout. I may be wrong but just my opinion.

---

Come on, Scott. Yep, the President of the ACA has the interpersonal an professional skills of a child. He has gotten bashed, so it goes. Rich is a political figure with power in the field......his name and ideas will be attacked. But I think when look back over the vast majority of the threads you will those who may be "bashing" him started with good intent and constructive language. But there is only so long before you occasionally slip into the language Rich himself uses so regularly.

I have actually tried to engage Rich and have admitted mistakes when I have made them (just did in this thread). Rich has never shown such effort (other than the very vague "I failed, nuff said).

Phillip

Phillip

[QUOTE=mdd;474462]Phillip, just let it go. I think the ACA is beyond repair now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Let me end where I began....:facepalm1: The costumes have come off and yes, this is officially, in my humble opinion, a Rich bashing thread. Pathetic really. Very little to do with the ACA really and virtually nothing to do with the ACGA in this thread. :facepalm1:

For the record, I still see great value in the ACA. The product is still very very good. I personally think the name and the trained ACA certified guides still carry a bunch of clout. I may be wrong but just my opinion.

And wow, I am not sure I have ever seen anyone so consumed with so much nastiness towards another human being (OK I have but not over something that is fun like canyoneering. Not like a divorce here people). Getting miffed or your feelings hurt is one thing but holy cow..... let it go.

---

Its not really malice ....

But there is at least one other person out there filled with such nastiness.....

He constantly used words like "piss ant", "BS" "crap" "a*s*o*e", etc on a regular basis. He does't discredit the behavior of the person (which is what I try to do, I may be imperfect) but just simply attacks them.

Look hard at the person you defend, Scott. The bashing his almost always started with him. Shane, Tom, ATS, and now me to just name a few.

Phillip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by restrac2000

Sorry if my previous comments leant to the idea that others were not reading or learning, that was unintentional wording (i.e. I was saying I don't care how others view me as I am getting what I need out of the class). I did assume it was you Rich was referring to......the problem with him being so ambiguous is I have to guess. Seems to fair to guess on my part when a character assasination is going on at canyoneering.net. So it goes, I was wrong. Guess there are more Rich allies there than I knew.

Phillip

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Thanks for clarifying your intent Philip. For the record I did refer to you as "some asshole" just a few minutes ago when my wife was wondering why the sudden attack against me. I will withdraw that negative connotation as I now see we both perceived your intent inaccurately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by backofbeyond

Thanks for clarifying your intent Philip. For the record I did refer to you as "some asshole" just a few minutes ago when my wife was wondering why the sudden attack against me. I will withdraw that negative connotation as I now see we both perceived your intent inaccurately.

---

Sorry to add any tension. I decided to join that class right when Judy joined the yahoo group and made some passive comments about me. We solved our differences via email afterwards to maintain some decorum in the classroom. I made the mistake of assuming it was you out of guilt by association, which always dangerous and poor logic. Sorry again. I try to keep my defensive walls low but often fail.

Phillip

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by restrac2000

Sorry to add any tension. I made the mistake of assuming it was you out of guilt by association, which always dangerous and poor logic.
Phillip

---

No problem, I am used to the "guilt by association" bag I drag around here on Bogely.
.

Thats a shame. I know the ACA has some smart and hard working folks in it and try to refrain from making accusations about everyone involved in it. Heck, one of my favorite mentors has maintained a working relationship with Rich for 15 years.

Hope you get what you need out of the internship. Hope there is some framework in place to help you through November 1.

Phillip

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by backofbeyond

No problem, I am used to the "guilt by association" bag I drag around here on Bogely.

---

Attachment 48424

Wow. Just read this entire thread and the one over on the ACA site. I've always heard great things about Rich and the classes offered. I've been doing canyons since 1998 when I first did Pine Creek and truly started 'canyoneering'. I still consider myself new. I probably would have benefited from an ACA course in the early days since most of my rope experiece came from doing aid climbing and big walls. I hope the classes are still offered for those that need it.

From this thread it appears that there are those who don;t like Rich and those who do. This Phillip guy sounds like a bit of a crybaby. I would in no way consider myself aware of all the issues or be naive enough to think that there is even a shred of truth being posted on here from any of those involved in this latest round of canyoneering politics. BUT......from just reading this thread it appears that this Phillip guy has a bone to pick and is actively trying to make this into a Rich bashing thread.

I'm not sure who posted it but someone said that it's just canyoneering. I agree. It's just not that complicated. If someone is unhappy with the ACA then start your own thing and quit crying.

And the merry-go-round continues, except the different riders (players) mostly speak different code talk and narrative. Speak to an issue and interests? No, blather vulgarity, attack, deny, simplify, dodge and then avoid cogent issues "some" have offered. Some seem to honestly engage; others lack the instinct, skill or interest....others scoff.

A concern (issue) I/others have voiced is the use of the term "Association" and image "branding" when the ACA corporate and organizational structure is NOT a registered collective class of people, but rather an individual. Some on this site - even 'reported lawyers" - seem to care less and are apathetic in engaging on the point. OR, the game dodge-em arrives and the "evidence" suggests folk should just strap up and go canyoneering, and move away from this "conflict" muddle.

Some/so many seem to either lack the insight re activity in the ACA (RC) for the past decade, or they are insulted that "a public figure" is being spoken about. Others malign the ideal that this continuing drama has any relevance in any setting.

I/others remember years back, speaking with "Ray and Cindy" in Zion, ideas were tossed about, options offered and the "bottom line" became, "Oh, ACA has endorsed what we are offering". The sweetest sound, the canyon wren calling...who needs a point of view if ACA dogma offers. (but that's in the past....?)

Long ago Shane rode into town (RC) and (thought he) brought order to the troubled canyoneering valley? But now Shane apparently saddles up and asks someone (anybody? really?) to save the day (purchase the web & organizational name). The big tent, maybe, never fit the business model of the modern day canyoneering crowd. Delusional really to toss the "ownership" to an unknown and untested bidder. A more responsible offering would be to let the ACA brand lapse, continue Canyons and Crags (if that's RC wish) and run training and courses under that name and moniker (Canyons and Crags, a dba for the sole proprietor RC). The web site could be re branded as Canyoneering, for the masses. And future canyon fests? - once upon a time Tom Fests - RC, C &C Zion Cyn fest. Nothing wrong with that in my view. Full disclosure and folk knowing what they are, and are not, connecting to.

November 1, a draw down; or maybe, instead of passing the baton (a real bad idea) the lead actor "in this play" could continue with much of what he is doing, but this time do it under his own personal name and "small" private business. Nothing stops him from continuing to send out emails, organize, teach, train and sponsor events. And with that ACA crown taken off his head, he will have no one to respond to but himself, and the direction he seeks professionally or personally to pursue will be his alone.

The gift of imagination? Imagining what another might think and feel. I don't have to agree with others and others need not agree with me. But then the cognitive offerings, or lack of, amazing really as some/so many scoff at serious engagement in discussion. And yes the dark drama, the stage curtain closes, but maybe only temporarily, until the genie puts a new "heart/soul" in RC and ACA (re-directed) sails on once again? Who knows? And then of course who, just who, has a stake (say) in all of this, and who really should ride with the banner? Those ACA canyon leaders, or those wishing to have nothing to do with the ACA canyon leadership (and it's points) program? Points of view from various corners, most sullied, if they don't match "another speakers" state of mind.

How to "simplify"? Let the ACA organizational and web name slide, and if you/he RC like, continue the vision/program/energy under the C&C registered dba moniker. But then some would say of course, this is nobodys' business but RC's? Well, welcome to the land of public and public figures; where most often, public opinion matters; but then some (naysayers) would argue with that - oh yea - lets just go do canyons, this is all a big fricken waste of time? Oops, the canyon wren just got swallowed by a raven. (who cares, about a point of view, and who cares to be civil and cogent in a discussion - by golly, lets be boistrous and brash, and shout, shout some more, - so mind numbing? so insightful and intellectual?) Lemmings, running to the rescue or running off a canyon cliff (really)?

And this new Canyon Guide Assoc. They should be able to pull interested parties from a quiver of training venues all over the west. Why does someone need to be an ACA canyon leader, if they have at least, comparative training and tutoring elsewhere? And really folk, want to be a guide? Print a card, get a web site and lodge a liability insurance policy with an agency. Apply with the FS or BLM, or operate on private land. Once you start guiding, no one will know or care that you have either "virtual or real" training. The arc of professional guiding on public lands..another discussion for another day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelsonccc

This Phillip guy seems like a whiny bitch.
BUT......from just reading this thread it appears that this Phillip guy has a bone to pick and is actively trying to make this into a Rich bashing thread.

---

Could be. Not the reason I started engaging the ideas or thread. Feel free to guess at my intent though.

Phillip

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reflection

I/others remember years back, speaking with "Ray and Cindy" in Zion, ideas were tossed about, options offered and the "bottom line" became, "Oh, ACA has endorsed what we are offering". The sweetest sound, the canyon wren calling...who needs a point of view if ACA dogma offers. (but that's in the past....?)

---

Mr. Lewis,

Next time you talk to Ray ask him who came into his office claiming to be the access coordinator for the ACA. You might find it entertaining. It wasn't me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nelsonccc

Wow.

This Phillip guy seems like a whiny bitch.
.

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Wow...to refer to someone as a "whiny bitch" (someone who hasn't used any such language in any of his many posts on this thread), all I can say is: look in the mirror.

Nat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Thanks to Rich for all he has done for the community which has not been a small contribution by any means. Thanks to Ram for all he has done for the community, again no small contribution. Thanks to Tom for all he has done for the community and the community gear needs/wants, thanks to Shane for all he as done for the community with really good beta, and thanks to all who are responsible canyoneers and for all they do for the community.

---

Too bad, this seems like a great team right here.

You guys should go to some marriage counseling and just get to the part where they say "pick a thing about your partner you don't like, and just drop it" for hell's sake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

You guys should go to some marriage counseling and just get to the part where they say "pick a thing about your partner you don't like, and just drop it" for hell's sake.

---

As a coworker of mine is fond of saying, "This is like snowshoeing through a river of shit".

To be honest the best post I've seen from all of this is the suggestion that bogley take over the ACA. And that is because bogley-ites seem to be the only ones acting like rational, adult people in all of this. Which is pretty telling if you think about it.

Either that or this is an elaborate community-wide punking put on by Phillip and Rich.

Barring that I think a lot of posters on here, the ACA site and the egroup should take a vacation from posting. Please? Just a few day cooling off period?


M

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mdd

As a coworker of mine is fond of saying, "This is like snowshoeing through a river of shit".

To be honest the best post I've seen from all of this is the suggestion that bogley take over the ACA. And that is because bogley-ites seem to be the only ones acting like rational, adult people in all of this. Which is pretty telling if you think about it.

Either that or this is an elaborate community-wide punking put on by Phillip and Rich.

Barring that I think a lot of posters on here, the ACA site and the egroup should take a vacation from posting. Please? Just a few day cooling off period?


M

---

Not a punk, never figured out the subtleties of internet humor to pull any joke off, nonetheless one of this scale ;^)

There will likely be a few day cooling off period simply because its the weekend, not as much use on the forums then. Makes sense.

At this point, I firmly believe such mitigation likely only leads to the ACA status quo. I can't control that as a long term outcome but so much but I can direct my actions to try and prevent that.

There are times (99% of the time in regards to the ACA) where I have taken much greater diplomatic care with my approach. I can't do that anymore. We just differ in that regard, in this specific situation, I guess Mike.

Phillip

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sombeech

Too bad, this seems like a great team right here.

---

There are too many macho men and egos in the room - you all need to make room for some energetic kid who does not take sides!

It's entertaining, but I know its not easy on your old hearts guys! You are all getting up there and can't take a lot of of this anymore. :mrgreen:

Why is the ACA not ran like the business with one owner in charge anyway instead of having all this fighting? As a business owner I sure would not want a board telling me how to do things. I want to do them my way. That's where the fun is. I know many of you own your own business as well and would not want anyone telling you what do to.

But then I have not read all the posts and may be totally on the wrong track? .. but I just felt like chiming in.

As was said elsewhere, following this thread is like slowing down on the freeway to take a closer look at a wreck. And I'll add that it sounds like talk radio in the background.

eclipsee_steering :facepalm1:

From the viewpoint of someone who loves canyons more than politics, the relentless implementation of good ideas over endless complaining, and words of encouragement over malice, please tone it down.

Can't we all just get along?

:five:

Believe me, I get the point. I don't support unethical and deceptive practices, like holding out a private business as an association. I don't know enough to make a firm conclusion that that's want's going on here, but if it is, I totally empathize with the frustration. Candidly, I know very little about the ACA.

But in the end, I'd suggest there are better ways of handling the conflict than on an internet forum. Actually do something about it that might make a real difference. Call the person, sit down with them, reason together. Be civil. Don't fight fire with fire. Work it out. But by all means, please set your ego aside, put away the vinegar, and be cool. :cool2: If that doesn't work, I doubt anything else will. If you've been there, done that, then go compete in the marketplace. Be the solution. As a last resort, our society has provided a formal means for resolving disputes. It's expensive and I don't recommend it. But fixing it is more effective than complaining about it. :2thumbs:

This is inside baseball. I think one is seeing the growing pains that every organization must go through. I hope a leadership core comes together to resolve this in a positive way. I see no reason why an ACA can't be a professionally run, not for profit, that looks to the best interests of a growing American canyoneering community. As such, it can look forward to the support of dues paying members. Inevitably with this type of organization, there will be many more members than the active leadership core. Politically it is not always best if the most unhappy vocal individuals come to the forefront and take up the mantle of leadership. Ultimately what counts is the concerted action of a dedicated core of like minded individuals. Once you've got that figured out, please let the rest of us know where to send the membership checks and what the sportscience t-shirt will look like.

Ken

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nat

Wow...to refer to someone as a "whiny bitch" (someone who hasn't used any such language in any of his many posts on this thread), all I can say is: look in the mirror.

Nat

---

You're right, fixed it.

What I was trying to say is that from the outside looking in and reading all this, the phillip guy keeps saying the same thing over and over. We get it, ad nauseam. That was the point I was trying to make. He seems like a petulant child that doesn't get to play with someone elses toys. That may or may not be true but after reading all of this, that's the impression I got.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelsonccc

You're right, fixed it.

What I was trying to say is that from the outside looking in and reading all this, the phillip guy keeps saying the same thing over and over. We get it, ad nauseam. That was the point I was trying to make. He seems like a petulant child that doesn't get to play with someone elses toys. That may or may not be true but after reading all of this, that's the impression I got.

---

Both Piss Ant (thought Little Piss Ant always sounds better) and Petulant Child both have a nice ring to them.

I agree that many people get that impression.

Phillip

I have no clue who Phillip is, but Nelson is awesome and certainly far too large to be a piss ant. :mrgreen:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

Actually do something about it that might make a real difference.

---

Hahaa.... but that is where the problem orginiates.... all of those commenting, complaining or whining have done something about it. They all have invested a tremendous amount of time, money and energy into the sport of canyoneering and they are not happy that their contribution and/or work is being rip apart and undermined by anther party. The reason some of this is being handled in a open forum is that has provan to be the only way to actually get anything done in a transparent manner...

To the noob or casual participate of canyoneering.... I get it, I understand you don't have a grasp on why this stuff is important, but understand it is, or all the old dogs would not be growing at each other. This story has a long back history over 12 years in the making. It would be in the sports best interest if you at least tried to understand a little of what this is about.

But at least understand... Every time you stand in a permit line, rappel from a bolt, hire a guide, access through private property, descend a pristine all natural route, access beta, take a canyon class.... you are experiencing a portion of what this food fight is all about.... Things should all shake out in the end for the better, so just hang on and enjoy the show for now.....

:cool2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Hahaa.... but that is where the problem orginiates.... all of those commenting, complaining or whining have done something about it. They all have invested a tremendous amount of time, money and energy into the sport of canyoneering and they are not happy that their contribution and/or work is being rip apart and undermined by anther party. The reason some of this is being handled in a open forum is that has provan to be the only way to actually get anything done in a transparent manner...

To the noob or casual participate of canyoneering.... I get it, I understand you don't have a grasp on why this stuff is important, but understand it is, or all the old dogs would not be growing at each other. This story has a long back history over 12 years in the making. It would be in the sports best interest if you at least tried to understand a little of what this is about.

But at least understand... Every time you stand in a permit line, rappel from a bolt, hire a guide, access through private property, descend a pristine all natural route, access beta, take a canyon class.... you are experiencing a portion of what this food fight is all about.... Things should all shake out in the end for the better, so just hang on and enjoy the show for now.....

:cool2:

---

echoes a lot of my thoughts as well. thanks shane. :2thumbs:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rcwild

Mr. Lewis,

Next time you talk to Ray ask him who came into his office claiming to be the access coordinator for the ACA. You might find it entertaining. It wasn't me.

---

Do you really want to go there Rich? I still have my correspondence with Zion NP over the permit system, In my humble opinion the ACA has more to do with the current permit system mess and quota's then anyone....... But of course you (the ACA) was working other objectives at the time like ACA guiding inside the park and requiring an ACA merit badge to obtain a permit, yada, yada....

I said it at the time and I'm even more convinced it is true with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight... The ACA position with regards to the Zion permit system is best described as the "Neville Chamberlain" approach.

Herein lies some of the major dig----

How would these land agencies treat the American Canyoneering "ASSOCIATION" (ACA)

Verses--The American Carlson Sole Proprietorship (ACSP)

My guess is, many doors are opened when you claim to be an association, rather than a lone entity(sole proprietorship)falsely claiming to be an actual association, representing yourself!!

And if you falsely claim 4-5000 members, because thats how many have signed up for your web site since inception, is once again, a deception.

How many of the land agencies involved with the recent workshop held at the ACA Rendezvous, actually understood they were dealing with a sole proprietorship rather than an association??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oldno7

Herein lies some of the major dig----

How would these land agencies treat the American Canyoneering "ASSOCIATION" (ACA)

Verses--The American Carlson Sole Proprietorship (ACSP)

My guess is, many doors are opened when you claim to be an association, rather than a lone entity(sole proprietorship)falsely claiming to be an actual association, representing yourself!!

And if you falsely claim 4-5000 members, because thats how many have signed up for your web site since inception, is once again, a deception.

How many of the land agencies involved with the recent workshop held at the ACA Rendezvous, actually understood they were dealing with a sole proprietorship rather than an association??

---

OMG..That's an argument that is cogent, on point, and does not involve the use of invective.

Patiently waiting the formation of a new American Canyoneering Association.

Ken