I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Maybe Brian can dig up the details. What I remember is:
- well-liked, experienced and highly respected climber from Salt Lake
- solo'd Prodigal Son. Accident occured near the top, maybe even on the top pitch.
- happened at night.
- theorized that rope creep was the problem.
- was rapping two different cords, and the pitch was not too much shorter than the length of the rope.
My memory - ha!!!

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Actually, you did pretty good.

Was in 1997. Fellers name was John Christensen. I don't think he was from SLC, but, south of there, maybe Provo. I remember this because it was considered the first and only climbing fatality up to that time in Zion. Happened right after new year's, either the 1st or the 2nd of January and near midnight or 1am, I seem to recall the park estimated.

Had a bunch of gear with him, including a heavy haul bag. Topped out, but, didn't want to try to drag all that stuff up the final pitch low angle gully and chimney, so, rapped back down and was rappelling down the wall with it when the accident happened.

Was using a 11mm or near lead rope, and, reportedly his haul line was 7mm and static.

I've seen quite a bit of creep when using my standard pull cord set up (6mm Kevlar and 9.4mm lead rope). Even to the point of popping the knot through a rappel ring ring on a steep rappel (filled my pants a bit). Kept further creep by managing the ropes with effort separately on rappel (one in each hand).

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Tucker

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

I love the death grip of the left hand. Tell me were the ropes of different diameter? Looked that way from the video. Also, for those experts out there, what is the danger (if any) of different diameter ropes on rappel?

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The death grip part was when I was fighting to get the prussick to slide. Also, right as I slide off the ledge is when my nalgene bottle fell and exploded. There were some expletives in the original soundtrack. There was also a raven sitting on the ledge across from me cawing...so I had all the ominous signs going :haha:

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:lol8: That's great! All that just adds to the ambiance of that rap. :five:

I have a possibly naive question. For that last rap in Pine Creek, is there an inherent problem in setting up the biner block with 2 100 foot ropes joined with an EDK and then double lining? It seems that would eliminate the danger of only clipping on to the pull cord, and thus reaching the bottom much faster than you were expecting, while still allowing the use of two shorter ropes instead of one 200 foot rope.

I think you would be ok. But 100ft is cutting it close. I would just make sure both ends are at the ground.

No real trouble with using a biner block on this rap. Seems pretty popular to do so. Just keep yourself clipped in with a sling to the anchor until you weight the rope and make sure you hooked everything up correctly.

If you use two 100' ropes tied together and rappeling double strand you do not need a biner block.

The biner block is the most misused, inappropriately used, most over used technique I know of and has resulted in several accidents and at least one death.

And it will result in more accidents and deaths before we are finished....

Yes, a biner block is a useful tool, to bad its so misused.

:cool2:

Oh I kind of read that wrong. If you have 2 100 footers then just double strand them. Or if you are worried about slippage you could do the stone knot on your two strands.

edit: here is the stone knot http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress...tone/index.php

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

Oh I kind of read that wrong. If you have 2 100 footers then just double strand them. Or if you are worried about slippage you could do the stone knot on your two strands.

edit: here is the stone knot http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress...tone/index.php

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Slippage was why I was thinking you'd put the biner block in the system, yes to prevent the EDK sliding up against the rapide, which I'm thinking is probably undesirable?

That seems to me to have the advantage that you wouldn't need to remove it for the last person, in order to pull the rope after they're down.

i have done pine creek 5 time and am heading up there in may. Everytime we doubled a 200 ft rope and just double stranded the rap. it works great everytime no slippage or anything. we pretty much double everything under 100ft. we run the rope through the rap ring equilize the rope and down we go that way we don't have to worrie about what side to pull. not sure if this helps any.

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Slippage was why I was thinking you'd put the biner block in the system, yes to prevent the EDK sliding up against the rapide, which I'm thinking is probably undesirable?

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Take the biner block and put it in your pack. The knot against the rapide is no big deal. You should not get slippage unless someone is doing something very strange.

The major cause of slippage I know of is rappeling on two different diameter ropes because one rope feeds through the rappel device faster then the other. Even then we are usually only taking a few of inches and not several feet.

I'm sure their are other examples... but normally slippage is not an issue.

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

Oh I kind of read that wrong. If you have 2 100 footers then just double strand them. Or if you are worried about slippage you could do the stone knot on your two strands.

edit: here is the stone knot http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress...tone/index.php

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Also, word on the canyon floor is that the rappel is 10-15 feet shorter than previously, so about 90 feet, and less of a precise set.

Here in the colonies, we have these silly aluminum rappel rings that are about the same size as the knot, and the knot can get stuck in em. It would be unusual to see one of these in Pine Creek. So, just check that the knot will to get stuck inside the rapid link or whatever ring is on the last rappel.

Tom :moses:

If you're really worried about slippage, get paranoid like I do, and throw a knot on each end of the rope when you toss it down. (If I won't have a huge pile of leftover rope at the bottom of a rap, I always put on a knot. I get mocked; I brush 'em off. Too many reports of people rapping off the rope.) Of course, make sure you remove them before pulling the rope. :eek2:

Have a great trip!!!

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Originally Posted by Cirrus2000

I always put on a knot. I get mocked; I brush 'em off. Too many reports of people rapping off the rope.

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If you knew how many times I've seen the knot in the end of the rope get stuck and cause major problems from folks doing this.....

I've never heard of a canyoneer rapping off the end of his rope. I'd guess more a problem for climbers retreating from a multi pitch route.

I once rescued a guy doing the two stage big wall entrance in Englestead who had trapped himself. The rope streached as he neared the bottom of the rappel and the knot stuck in a crack. This created an automatic bottom belay. The guy (pretty much a noob) had no clue how, or gear with him, to escape the nice little trap he set for himself....

just sayin'.... pick your poison....

:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

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Originally Posted by Cirrus2000

I always put on a knot. I get mocked; I brush 'em off. Too many reports of people rapping off the rope.

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If you knew how many times I've seen the knot in the end of the rope get stuck and cause major problems from folks doing this.....

I've never heard of a canyoneer rapping off the end of his rope. I'd guess more a problem for climbers retreating from a multi pitch route.

I once rescued a guy doing the two stage big wall entrance in Englestead who had trapped himself. The rope streached as he neared the bottom of the rappel and the knot stuck in a crack. This created an automatic bottom belay. The guy (pretty much a noob) had no clue how, or gear with him, to escape the nice little trap he set for himself....

just sayin'.... pick your poison....

:popcorn:

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True enough. All my rappel experience (until recently) was rock climbing. Still...

Pine Creek is so busy that if the knot got stuck at the anchor or there was a problem pulling it there will be someone coming behind you within a few minutes anyway that could help you out.

When you set up the rap there will probably be people at the bottom that would double check for you that the ropes reached the bottom. I thing just tying the 2 100 and rapping double wouldn't cause any problems.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg

As shown in this photo, what purpose is the biner on the loop? I understand it could be clipped to the anchor to add safety. But rigged as it is, does it serve any purpose?

It makes a person, who is absolutely convinced that a figure 8 on a bight, can be passed through a rapide, "feel better"


Lots of unnecessary redundancy in that anchor and rigging. I love cleaning that rap station up, it's a constant gold mine of gear.

Please note--ALL the weight is on the lower glue in. BAD ANCHOR BUILDING SKILLS HERE.

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Please note--ALL the weight is on the lower glue in. BAD ANCHOR BUILDING SKILLS HERE.

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My eyes (as well as my mind) are fading with age, but I see the possibility that the load is shared with the upper bolt as a strand of the loaded webbing goes off-frame toward the upper bolt.

Very cluttered anchor, regardless.

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Originally Posted by oldno7

It makes a person, who is absolutely convinced that a figure 8 on a bight, can be passed through a rapide, "feel better"


Lots of unnecessary redundancy in that anchor and rigging. I love cleaning that rap station up, it's a constant gold mine of gear.

Please note--ALL the weight is on the lower glue in. BAD ANCHOR BUILDING SKILLS HERE.

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And the color... :cry1:

Equalizing newish modern bolts is not real important. We put in two bolts for reliability issues, rather than strength problems. So the upper bolt backs up the glue-in bolt. Glue-in bolt likely good for around 8000 lbs, backup bolt good for about 5000 lbs - unless the guy in the boat is jump-rappelling on static ropes I think we will be OK.

Agreed - lots of trash and poor rigging at this anchor. Also, people tend to rig it substantially longer than it needs to be, which makes the start more difficult that it needs to be.

But to answer the original question:

Nothing wrong with installing a biner block and then rapping double strand. The only issue would be where the biner itself could get stuck on something during the pull - not an issue on this rappel. Installing a biner block eliminates problems of creep in one direction, but not the other.

The figure-8 clipped to the rope is a way of doing it that Petzl promotes. Word across the pond is that it is not SOP in Europe, but some people use it.

You never know the size of the rapid link on the bottom of this rap, so there is some concern that a knot-block would get jammed or pull through, and even that at times a biner block might pull through.

Black, tan or grey on the webbing, Pu-Lease!!!

Tom :moses:

Just curious, why does webbing color matter?

People go into the backcountry to experience nature.

Nylon webbing is not nature.

Human artifacts left behind disrupt the experience of being in the backcountry. While webbing and rings, etc. are trash, they are USEFUL trash, but still trash. I'm not saying you should not leave useful trash behind, but I do think you should minimize the amount and the visual impact of the trash you leave behind. So please use colors that blend into the environment. While red, yellow, blue, purple, bright orange etc. are natural colors for flowers in the backcountry, grey, black, brown and tan webbing blend into the environment where we leave stuff behind better than bright colors.

Thus the plea to leave mild colors, when you leave trash. And as little as possible.

Thanks.

Tom :moses:

^^^ Concur with that.

Climbers, canyoneers...we aren't the only ones who recreate and/or see these anchors. Out of sight, out of mind. Hikers, bird watchers, tree huggers, snail darter lovers, land managers...they all see visually obtrusive anchors and some, frankly, see them as...well...obtrusive. If you don't see bolts, anchors...then...their impact is negligable.

makes sense to me

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Climbers, canyoneers...we aren't the only ones who recreate and/or see these anchors. Out of sight, out of mind. Hikers, bird watchers, tree huggers, snail darter lovers, land managers...they all see visually obtrusive anchors and some, frankly, see them as...well...obtrusive.

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Honestly I've never quite understood this claim. I see very few anchors from positions where foot traffic would be remotely close to canyoneering routes. In all of Zion, for example, is there a single bolt or webbing cluster seen anywhere from regular pedestrian go abouts? Off trail in the Escalante region, even then, where? If someone is bird watching or hiking anywhere near where a drop would be, I don't think they'd be hiking near where a drop would be.

Sport climbing routes in a park, different story. But for canyoneering, I don't buy the sentiment.

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Originally Posted by dsr70

Honestly I've never quite understood this claim. I see very few anchors from positions where foot traffic would be remotely close to canyoneering routes. In all of Zion, for example, is there a single bolt or webbing cluster seen anywhere from regular pedestrian go abouts? Off trail in the Escalante region, even then, where? If someone is bird watching or hiking anywhere near where a drop would be, I don't think they'd be hiking near where a drop would be.

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south fork of choprock/kaleidoscope, the final anchor can be clearly seen

there are a few in the grand canyon - olo, deer creek, garden creek, fern glen, etc... all the anchors at the final drops, (in some cases first drops) can be seen from areas that get a lot of traffic (because of river trips mainly). that's the primary reason why the park requires black webbing only.

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In all of Zion, for example, is there a single bolt or webbing cluster seen anywhere from regular pedestrian go abouts?

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Yes. Beartrap Falls is one that comes to mind. Not sure what is there currently, but in the past you could see several slings from the bottom. Subway usually has one too.

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Off trail in the Escalante region, even then, where?

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South Fork Choprock comes to mind. Steve Allen mentions this in his book.