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Sounds like Dan is your source. He should know policy with National for what you can do, when it expires, etc. for your council...I'll bet you are Ok until end of year, which then your council must have an approved program in place.
Just a guess though.
Thanks for sympathizing with me Airman. It really is frustrating. At the first of the year I sent out some email and made some phone calls (Brandt was one of them) in order to try and figure all of this stuff out. When I talked to Dan and Brandt then, It was made pretty clear that talking to a member of a different council (aka Brandt) was NOT helpful. welll... i can't say he wasn't completely un-helpful. he was pleasant to talk to, and he helped me see what my council is NOT doing. But other than that, my phone calls with him didn't really get me anywhere. I also took him up on his invite, and called him a few weeks ago. It was pretty much the same thing as when I talked to him at the first of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by airman
Oh.......Dan. Yeah, I have talked with him a bunch on the phone, as well as by email. Earlier this year I called him and he told me that he was in the process of updating the climbing/rappelling/canyoneering plan in the UNPC and that a training was to be held at the end of March. I was all excited and had about 4 other guys ready to attend the training! But, when the day came for the training, Dan told me that it wasn't gonna happen, and that he would email me and keep me posted on when it would happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer
Well.... on Friday I called him again. Yeah... SAME EXACT THING! He is STILL updating the climbing and canyoneering curriculum and training and is now telling me that he will be having a class at the end of September. (I will believe that when I see it!) He also told me that only dry canyons with up to 4 or 5 rappels will be allowed. :roll:
Anyway, talking with these people is proving to make things even more complicated and frustrating.
So at the moment I think I will hold true to what I feel I know.
Take all the online BSA trainings as I can (Climb on Safely, Safe Swim Defence, Safety Afloat, Hazardous weather, etc)
Get CPR and Wilderness First Aid Trained
Get appropriate UNPC and BSA climbing training (what ever that is)
Get some professional canyoneering training
Submit a tour plan
train the boys, leaders, and Dad in basic canyoneering before the trip.
then go have an awesome time with the Scouts in Slot canyons that you have personal experience doing!
Until I find out otherwise, that is about the best I can do.
2. Qualified Instructors
A qualified climbing/rappelling instructor who is at least 21 years of age and trained in the specific type of climbing must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A capable instructor has experience in teaching climbing and rappelling to youth, acknowledges personal limitations, and exercises good judgment in a variety of circumstances.
There must be a minimum of two instructors for all climbing and rappelling activities (up to 12 participants) and one additional instructor (at least 18 years of age) for up to each additional six participants, maintaining a 6:1 ratio. Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:
- BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
- National Outdoor Leadership School
- Wilderness Education Association
- American Mountain Guides Association
- Eastern Mountain Sports
- University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
- Professional Climbing Guide Institute
- Professional Climbing Instructors Association
For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required.
Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities. For instance, some climbers with a lot of experience have repeated the same mistakes many times without learning correct procedures.
So I am going at it again with the UNPC. Looks like the climbing director quit, BUT I have received some direction on how to proceed with getting the correct certifications. I was told by Bob Gowens to contact Ben Allen and his staff at CLAS Ropes for the training. He made it knows that the training received there will be sufficient to make you a "qualified instructor" and will allow you to manage climbing programs as required by BSA Topping out and Climb On Safely.
As far as canyoneering is concerned, it looks like it is mentioned now in the literature as a "Specialized activity" and as such, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing those activities are now required. My only question now is: what qualifies as good canyoneering training? and whose training is "good"?
When I spoke with the guys at CLAS last year, they said they only offered the rock climbing instructor course once a year. Kuya, when you find out the date, please post it here so the rest of can sign up too.
I believe the only person on this thread who can answer your question with authority kindly offered a way to contact him in post #40. I'd give him a call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
I appreciate and admire your diligence in desiring to obtain the appropriate training. :2thumbs:
I have talked to Brandt a few times now, and he doesnt have any authority in the UNPC (that I'm aware of anyway). As far as I understand, he works for the GSLC. Those of us in the UNPC have to work with people in our council. The information I just posted comes from Robert (Bob) Gowens and a few other UNPC Council members.Quote:
Originally Posted by airman
As far as being able to participate in his training...? Yeah, I asked him about that too. He pretty much told me no, that the class is to full and he couldn't sneak me in :(
I have been on the climbing committee for UNPC for a few years now, and you have been given faulty information. The only person that can certify you as a climbing instructor is a Climbing director period. Clas ropes is not, nor is Dan from 12 fingers. If you would like honest accurate information feel free to p.m. me.
@Spidey, I am so confused! I have multiple emails in my inbox, not even a week old, from people in the UNPC telling me to specifically go get training from the guys at CLAS Ropes in Provo, and that it WILL make me a "qualified instructor" which fulfils the requirement in the BSA Climb On Safely, thus allowing me to take my Scouts into Utah's beautiful vertical world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidey
It seems to me that UNPC truly has struck some kind of deal with CLAS Ropes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
Unless the gentlemen at CLAS ropes has recently become a climbing director, which is possible. He hasn't to my knowledge, but it is possible. If he is not? He is not in a position to certify anyone, regardless of what UNPC says it would not be recognized by national. Also how long is the course he offers? If it is not a minimum of 3 days it does not meet any of the criteria. I am sorry but the UNPC is impotent and being run by lesser men who don't understand the situation or the danger that leaders are putting these young men in. It will probably take a fatality for them to wake up. Clark and I tried for 4 years to get them to implement even a few common sense solutions, to no avail. They now appear to be rubber stamping policy written by people who happen to have connections at the council, but who have no business writing policy for anyone but themselves!
The sad truth is the UNPC is an absolute Fluster Cuck, and they are not getting better they are getting worse.
I don't disagree with you Spidey. I think there is much to be improved upon as far as the UNPC climbing/canyoneering program is concerned. BUT, as far as I am concerned as a leader, if I take the training that they specifically tell me to take, then I am covered by them.
:nono: I don't think so. The paper version of the Tour Plan makes this pretty clear (I think anyway):Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
[QUOTE=Tour Plan]Unauthorized and Restricted Activities: The BSA
Then what the H@!#$ is a leader supose to do in the UNPC council?????? Ya take their training, you submit an approved tour plan. WHAT MORE AM I SUPPOSED TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Welcome to the UNPC it's a complete and total Fluster Cuck, get used to it. I have been leaving exclamation points like that in my wake for years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
I feel for ya Spidey. I really do. I wish they would just listen to experts like you and get a quality program up and running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidey
Tough question. I can empathize with your frustration!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
The bottom line is that you need to comply with BSA National and council policies. That is the only way to protect yourself, your family, and your Scouts.
As I've said before on this thread, I don't have the authority from the BSA or any of the local councils to interpret BSA policies. But if I were in the UNPC, I would conclude that I could not undertake a unit-level climbing or canyoneering activity until I had successfully completed a BSA National-approved training program, which would be very, very frustrating when such a program appears to be elusive within the UNPC. And doing an approved week long course at Philmont or elsewhere would probably be outside the limits of my resources.
The good news is that BSA National has created an accreditation program for council climbing programs. This is what Brandt Jones was talking about in post #40 on this thread. More information about the accreditation program can be found in the National Camp Accreditation Program (NCAP) Circular No. 2. This accreditation program requires the council to have a Program Manager who submits a council training program to a Training Program Evaluator for review (see Circular No. 2, page 9, section SQ-409(B)(2)(b). More information about Program Managers can be found here.
The reason I suggested in post #65 that you contact Brandt Jones is because I understand that he is the Training Program Evaluator for the UNPC. He is also responsible for an unbelievable amount of effort to bring canyoneering to the BSA in a formal and approved manner in the GSLC and is in the process of helping other councils do the same. It's true that he is a volunteer for the GSLC, but he also has other climbing-related responsibilities higher up in the BSA. I'd suggest you give him a call. You might not like what he has to tell you, but he can tell you some of the things that are required for the UNPC to get an approved canyoneering program. I think the link to his contact information in post #40 is dead, but the same information can be found at the bottom of this page.
Best of luck. I hope that you will be a pioneer in getting the UNPC an approved canyoneering program.The council needs a dedicated group of volunteers to make it happen. Please pony up, get your friends to pony up, and get the program going. :2thumbs:
I have talked with Brandt at least 3 times in the past year and a half. My conversations with him are always the same. he talks about how great his program is in the GSLC and then he tells me that the UNPC program is no good. Talking with him has been very educational, yet very frustrating.
Since I am in the UNPC, I need them to tell me what they want me to do! Interestingly enough, there is a University of Scouting event going on at UVU on Feb 8. One of the breakouts is about canyoneering. I think I will be there! Ill let ya know what I learn.
I would love to see what the Canyoneering training is at the University of Scouting. Kuya, please let us all know.
This has been an interesting thread. I have been involved with the GSLC climbing program almost since its birth. I took the second class they held way back in 2000, and have been involved ever since. It has come a long way. When canyoneering began to be an issue for our council, there was a lot of thought and discussion on how to handle it, and keep it BSA legal. Yes, there were battles, the BSA way would take too long in a canyon,:crazycobasa: and I heard a lot of "that's just the way we do it in canyoneering:hail2thechief:". Thank goodness for a few that stepped up to create the GLSC Canyoneering Program, and had the forethought to work with Rich Carlson at the beginning. Sorry, but I can’t remember Spidey at any meetings. To those who continue its evolution, Thanks. I wish I could have been more a part, but employment issues kept me away. Really appreciative for Brandt's time and effort to expand the program to what it is today. I feel for the members of UNPC for the Lack of Vision from their council. :2thumbs:Thanks airman for the outstanding posts.
Five years ago I contacted the GSLC to see what I needed to do, to be BSA approved to go canyoneering. It was way too much of a hassle and cost to have to take the training every 2 years. Who’s going to pay for that and why do I need to re-certify every 2 years? It’s just too much effort and money every 2 years, for the 1 or 2 canyoneering trips I would do with my scouts in a year.
I made the easy decision to just take my scouts and do non-technical canyons. There are plenty of fun canyons for scouts that are not technical. It’s just not worth my time to figure out the ever evolving BSA policies.
[QUOTE=Canyoneerman;552055]Five years ago I contacted the GSLC to see what I needed to do, to be BSA approved to go canyoneering. It was way too much of a hassle and cost to have to take the training every 2 years. Who
About three years ago Rich and Brandt held a two day certification event in SLC. The first day was classroom work on BSA climbing policy with a test at the end of the night. That's when we learned that certification required a 100% on the written exam. The last question: recite the BSA Mission and Vision Statements, no mistakes allowed. Then came the pitch that Rich would be glad to provide a guide service for a greatly discounted rate to any troop. Brandt later admitted that they didn't intend to certify anyone through that event but were trying to get an idea of what skill level existed in the area. Getting 20 guys together under false pretenses soured me toward their efforts for life. This thread hasn't done anything to change that. Since then I've taken "a group of friends from our neighborhood" out and have their parents sign a waiver acknowledging the inherent risks and releasing me from liability. Not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on but at least I don't worry anymore. Ignorance is bliss.