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I'll back the fireman's belay! I took "whale" over average weight noob down Rock Canyon early this year. He slipped near the top of the big rap and with very little ease i stopped him dead in his tracks, he got his feet back under him and he continued down the rappel. I try to always use a fireman's when possible, competent canyoneer or not.
Got a link? I searched and searched for a failed firemans belay on video but I've yet to see one or even heard of one existing. If it failed and someone splatted it would be on video, trust me. The only one I could find was a dude let completely go of the rope with no belay at all. And again, I'm saying they are both safe methods. I think your assumption that a correct top belay is more safe than a correct bottom belay doesn't hold water with me. Plus a bottom belay is way faster and infinitely more efficient for groups, plus you dont need an extra rope. I've caught hundreds of noobs falling and you don't have to end up pulling any harder on the line than they were. Using 2 hands and my body weight, I can stop anyone pretty damn quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdd
You're introducing variables like you cant see the person, the person gains speed, completely let's go of the rope, falls 100 feet before starting a brake, etc, To try and prove a bottom belay is dangerous, yet use a correctly performed top belay experience to support your premise and discount any variables? What planet you from dude? :lol8:Quote:
You've obviously never belayed a second up from an anchor in a multi-pitch trad climb and caught a fall, or belayed a leader who falls when out of site (over a lip or something). I've gotten the "surprise yank on my device" many, many, many times, and with climbers the fall forces are generally greater than a rappeller being belayed from above, meaning the "yank" is stronger. I've also had many times where I've belayed a second from above, and they fell, out of my sight, and I barely registered that something happened. It's no big deal at all, if it was you'd hear about seconds falling to their deaths all of the time... but you don't, why not? What you are describing is belaying a rappeller from above using incorrect technique. Of course it won't work then, any more than a fireman's won't work with incorrect technique. My point is that it is a lot more difficult to catch a true out of control fall with a fireman's than with a top belay, and that people underestimate how hard it is to catch a fall with a fireman's to the point where it provides a very false sense of security.
I have caught people with a fireman's belay. I am 300lbs, he was about 190. He was on a ~45ft waterfall rappel using an ATC. He slipped and used his break hand to prevent smashing into the wall. When performing a fireman's I always keep my hands up high on the rope. I pulled back using all my weight/arm strength. He ended up falling about 3-4 ft and hit his head against the wall (That is why we always wear Helmets). The Fireman's belay completely worked the way it should. The rappeler was fine except for a bruised ego that he let go of his life line.
I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
I've done a rappel off a log at this location in the past, and it features the exciting "Rodeo Start". Nudge off the ledge and fall onto the rappel, swinging wildly underneath the log.
A beginner doing this? I can see turning upside down, grabbing at things... very definitely the kind of upside-downess that puts the leg-loop-attached autobloc into the rappel device. He may even have been unable to get back up into an upright position.
Yeah, falling 15 feet to the deck was not a good option, but it may have been the best available. Unfortunately it did not work.
Tom
I'm with Mike on the top belay v the fireman's. I much prefer to belay from the top (or sling shot, from the bottom). Top belay requires me to do something the entire time forcing me to pay attention. Fireman's is reactive.
Another reason is I don't like to be right below someone who might dislodge something. You can't really be on top of a fireman's and out of the way at the same time.
Different styles I suppose. And, I do appreciate the fireman's for less experienced friends on rappel, too. If I don't trust that they can rappel, I just prefer to be above and have them on belay.
I've practised fireman's a bunch. Actually did it last weekend climbing whilst stopping quickly on rappel to grab some tat from around a tree to the side of the rappel anchor. Had my partner at the anchor be my brake hand for a second. Works slick when it works!
I said, "properly positioned". Seems like most folks using an autoblock effectively have it so it doesn't come any where near the rappel device...Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I've seen "properly positioned" autoblocks grab onto the rope and stop someone. No biggie. Easy fix.
Folks that are taught the leg loop method with an autoblock too near a rappel device not pitched out from their belay loop on the harness? Not good. If you can rotate your hip and get that autoblock anywhere near the rap device, you've really defeated the purpose of using one in the first place. It'll either fail to grab the rope, or, jam. Neither situation a good option in the heat of battle.
Proper rappel technique and experience trumps all this back up stuff.
EVERYONE in Springdale teaches a one-day beginner course. There are now at least four options, Zion Adventure Co, Zion Rock, Zion Mountain School and Red Desert Adventures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathcricket
When I (and most of the we, including Zion Adventure, and most probably the rest of the above) teach a one-day or half-day class, we make careful evaluations about the student's natural abilities and their rate of learning. We (in this case ZAC) stress teaching a simple system and practicing it a lot. The system I teach depends on the students, but generally I would pick one way of rigging a rope and one way of setting oneself up on rappel, and sticking with that. If this couple were my students, I probably would have set them up on a double-rope rappel with a Pirana and an autobloc.
It is a matter of judgment about when to move past the autobloc. In most of my classes for people that I think will continue canyoneering, I make a point that the autobloc is a crutch that they need to understand and grow past quickly. However, most of the classes I teach are three-day classes, where I make a point of getting people past the "autobloc phase" during the class. In a one-day class, it is much harder to get past that point, or even to get to the point where the idea of no-auto-bloc can be introduced.
We also emphasize the Fireman's belay as being a better overall backup system than the autobloc.
For many people, a canyoneering class is extremely stressful, and they only remember some of the material presented. Thus, we like to have many repetitions of the simple system, and not confuse things by introducing conflicting or complementary ideas.
I have had several couples (as it turns out) fail the one-day basic class. At the end of the class, the question is what canyons can they do on their own. On two occasions, I have told couples that they would not be up for doing the Subway (but yes for Keyhole); although mostly that is because 240-lb non-hikers would not be able to do The Subway in July. On both occasions, they knew it, and were grateful for the confirmation (rather than pissed off), and were happy with the experience of the day, and reveled in the knowledge that canyoneering would not be their sport.
Tom
No argument from me that a top belay is much better then a fireman's all things being equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
My reason for liking a fireman belays is they are simple, fast, anyone can do them with a few minutes practice and my family uses them as a back-up. Realistically we are not going to top belay the entire group of experienced canyoneers because of time constraints. But there is really no reason not to set a fireman's belay in most cases as it requires almost zero effort or additional time.
x2 We always fireman belay if possible. I've stopped 2-3 people completely out of control and another handful who were losing it. Way more practical and quick than a top belay. Top belay is more full proof, true, but generally people who need the fireman belay are trying in some way to stop themselves and the added force of the fireman belay is enough. I've never encountered a situation where it wasn't enough. I once had a girl completely let go of the rope on her way down the 300 footer in engelstead. She was about 150-200 feet up and I pulled hard to stop her and then lower her slowly. When she got to the bottom I asked her what happened and she said "I got tired and knew you would take care of me" :facepalm1::facepalm1::facepalm1: That totally gave me the chills :cold: I never took her again.. but the fireman belay worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
x3! on the fireman's belay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
All you strong advocates of the top belay: I'll believe it when I see someone do it. I don't. EVER. Except certain guides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Tom
Maybe you just need to get out more, Tom...Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Attachment 59281
Attachment 59282
I do it all the time...
North Wash season coming soon ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
T
North Wash? Heck, I'd gladly accept a top belay from you for some of them down climbs....!
Skinny, narrow slots are frightening to me.... A man has to know his limitations.
I use a belay from top all the time (practice and for real). On long lowers the belayer better understand "rope weight" vs "belayed mass" particularly when visual contact becomes an issue. Large bellys can easily be introduced into the belay line as the belayer thinks the rope weight is actually the weight of the person being belayed. Back tension is critical to prevent "a belly" or slack into the belay line. We did a pick-off on Angels Landing last summer. Using 2 -1300' ropes and a 300' rope tied to the ends of each, an operation of shared load for both main and belay was done. Without radio comm. a large belly could have easily been introduced into either main or belay. Finally it took 2 of us to use hand-over tension on the belay to prevent a belly. Same thing could happen whilst belaying from the top of lets say Heaps? Unless the belayer shares the mass of the rappeler. a large belly could easily develope in the belay line and if the rappeler lost control lets say 50' above the ground, by the time the top belay could accept the total mass, with stretch I bet the rappeler will have decked?Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Yeah, Bo, keep an eye on them large bellys...
For me, and "my people" (the folks I feel responsible for), the most critical time is just gettin' going on rappel. Once they start down and they're fairly smooth, then, I try to give them enough slack that they don't feel the belay. Near the bottom, when the rope weight changes, I let the "belly" disappear and want to feel them a bit more, or, if I can see them, then see that there's a bit of tension in the line. Usually try to get a verbal from them that they're doing ok too.
But, you're right, near the bottom, when the friction is lower due to less rope weight, it'd be easy to blow it. At 100 feet, even with only 3% elongation, you wouldn't need much "belly" to have someone hit the ground fairly hard if they lost control of the rappel near the ground.
Good thoughts!
When the primary (or only) concern is helping people make that transition over the edge, try giving them a short 2:1 belay. Requires a length of rope that is twice the distance from the anchor to the spot over the edge where you want the belay to end. I typically figure out that distance, then connect the rope with a clove hitch to a carabiner on the anchor. Pass a loop of rope through a carabiner on the rappeller's harness, then back through a second carabiner on the anchor. If the rappeller is heavy or you are simply concerned about your ability to arrest, use a munter hitch on the second carabiner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Once the rappeller reaches the belay-end spot, the tail of the rope will come out of your second carabiner. The belayer should control where the tail drops -- don't let it hit the rappeller, drag loose rock over the edge, etc. The advantage of this system is that the rappeller does not have to stop to disconnect the belay rope. Also no need to pull up a long belay rope and it is quick to rig on the next rappeller.
Needless to say, it is not a system that will work in all situations. Depends on the anchor location, etc. When it is deemed prudent to provide belay all the way to the ground, choose another belay method.
Attachment 59447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
I have successfully stopped someone with a Fireman's and yet not been directly below. When there is a risk of rocks being dislodged from above, I have moved off vertical, out to the side, and still been able to effectively employ the Fireman. The rappeller often gets pulled off vertical, but the effect is still the same.
Kerry
Personal preference, I just much prefer a single rope rap to the double rope unless its just such a short rap as to make setting up a beaner block(or releasable figure 8) just time consuming. The times I have done Heaps, I like to single with an autoblock on that looong freehang.....unless the rope is wet and sandy. Game changer!
I consider using an auto block or prusik system for belay to be extremely unnecessary and potentially dangerous. I often use the phrase, it is so safe, it creates more problems than it solves. A competent belayer should be able to tie off their descender in an emergency and should never let go of the break hand.
The reason I feel this way is because of stories I've been told regarding accidents related to auto blocks and a first hand experience. I've heard of people getting their auto blocks jammed in their belay devices and getting stuck mid rappel. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that old man in subway die because he couldn't untension his autoblock in the waterfall?
I also think autoblocks are like training wheels that teach bad form and develop a dangerous reliance to the device. Once when I met a Canyoneer who was using one, I suggested he don't use it because it tends to create more problems. He unfortunately listened to me and on his next rappel, slipped, let go of his break hand and fell 30 feet. Fortunately he was not hurt. Because he relied on the autoblock, he never built the muscle memory to grip his break hand no matter what.
People use it as a crutch and become comfortable letting go of their break hand with an autoblock when this practice should never be done.
So this is why I do not recommend using an autoblock unless there is a special circumstance that deems it appropriate.
I also agree with other posters that a fireman belay is a great alternative.