Zion Rappel Accident

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Excellent points and tangents Rich. Running off for help without assessing the situation remindes me of my mother-in-law when one of her kids (now all grown) didn't come home on time. She would hop in the car and start driving. Not driving to a location just driving and looking for them. Made no sense to anyone but the panic and worry took over any rational thought process.

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OMG ~ I used to do that too, with my kids! I'm pretty sure that all moms think alike. Your mom didn't do that Scott when you didn't come home? :ne_nau:

I agree with all of the points Rich made. Having taken a first responder course, one of the things you learn, as a medically trained individual is that you have an obligation to assess, stabilize, and help a victim, "if" endangering yourself isn't imminent.

But, if you have no medical training, I can also see the dilemma.
(Actually, even with medical training I could envision being torn).
Standing on the edge of a 300

Sure makes you think about having 3 people when you think of a situation like this. Since I was just there last week my buddy, who is a ER doctor, we have discussed this quite a bit. He votes with Rich on going down to help. By the time help got there his odds are pretty high he would be dead. With your help who knows? It is a tough call. This is where the spot or sat phone really comes into play. I haul a Sat Phone and in most slots it is worthless but you might be able to climb out and make a call. At Englestead a call would go right out. With a spot you could trigger it and leave it at the top.

At least 3 guys seems like the smart way to go. Oh and 2 fm radios. We had two with us and without them you cannot even communicate at that distance.

Mark

Last couple canyons i've done we've carried a SAT phone with us. Mostly because my friends wife makes us after our Subway trip a couple years ago. We've been able to get brief areas of coverage in canyons like the Subway and Imlay. I'm going to carry a SPOT with me now.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Sure makes you think about having 3 people when you think of a situation like this. Since I was just there last week my buddy, who is a ER doctor, we have discussed this quite a bit. He votes with Rich on going down to help. By the time help got there his odds are pretty high he would be dead. With your help who knows? It is a tough call. This is where the spot or sat phone really comes into play. I haul a Sat Phone and in most slots it is worthless but you might be able to climb out and make a call. At Englestead a call would go right out. With a spot you could trigger it and leave it at the top.

At least 3 guys seems like the smart way to go. Oh and 2 fm radios. We had two with us and without them you cannot even communicate at that distance.

Mark

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I no more hit send and my Doc buddy calls me back from the ER. Him and 4 other ER doctors and the helicopter pilot in the ER have been discussing this scenario at work today.

Where a communication could be sent out in reasonable time they are all voting for going for help. Even at there training level they would go for help and then come back and rappel into the hole. They would not wait for help before going back but they would get help coming. They feel the scenarios of what is probably wrong with the person is beyond most peoples training and you have now increased the time for help to get there by hours.
So it's a bad situation regardless.

As far as spot's somewhere on here is a thread I started this winter about an actual spot rescue of a snowmobiler. Before buying a spot I would go find that thread and read it. They have some merit and are better than nothing but...... I am not sure if I ever followed up on that thread with the final conclusion. Spot did not send the helicopter the guys who rode out and went to someone's home got life flight in route. What spot will pay for is the cost of the helicopter if your insurance doesn't cover it. They do not dispatch helicopters. Lincoln County Search and Rescue did not have to high of a opinion of Spot when talking with my buddy after the fact. They have had multiple false alarms do to them. Spot being used for flats out of gas etc. Not using the function to send a message to buddy but actually pushing the 911 button. He has since bought a Sat Phone.

Mark

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Originally Posted by rcwild

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Originally Posted by moab mark

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options ...

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Bullsh---

It is possible to play the "what if" game until your buddy makes a miraculous recovery or until everybody, including all the rescuers and bystanders, dies. But, if you presented the scenario as Mark presented it, no competent professional would recommend leaving him without assessing his injuries first.

If you go down and perform CPR for 20 minutes and exhaust yourself, you have plenty of time to rest and recover because your buddy is dead and there is no rush getting help.

Bottom line remains the same ... If you go for help and it turns out your buddy needed basic life support, he will be dead when you return.

The only way you can tweak this scenario to justify going for help instead of going down to assess your buddy is if there are imminent dangers to you, i.e. you don't know how to rappel, there is no rope to rappel on, the rope has been compromised, rockfall, flash flood, etc. etc.

I won't even buy the argument that you can't go down because you don't know how to ascend back up. First things first. Save your buddy's life.

Other tangents to this thread should include -- Is it appropriate to go out with only two people? Especially if they are both beginners? Should there always be at least one person on a team who knows how to ascend? Better for everyone to know how? What kind of first aid kits are people carrying? What kind of first aid skills do people have, especially considering the remote terrain we venture into? Etc. Etc.

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What he said.

Then again, if the 'partner' cannot ascend the rope, and cannot provide even basic care, it might be better for them to run for help.

T :moses:

Again, from a caver's perspective, if ya go down a rope should learn how to go up a rope and carry something to do that.
The latest NSS journal interviewed an old time caver, he had ascended Golindras ( big Mexico pit cave) three times with knots-----that's over 1000 feet and normally you have to do a free hanging rope transfer about 100 feet from the top.
I'll take my handled ascender thank you ( and my tiblocs).

Looking at the news report, and what's been said here, I guess this guy's life was saved by a combination of:

a) A knot
b) bouncing off the cliff a few times
c) a less than effectual autobloc
d) third degree burns to the fingers

Does that sound reasonable?

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

Or am I way off base here?

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I no more hit send and my Doc buddy calls me back from the ER. Him and 4 other ER doctors and the helicopter pilot in the ER have been discussing this scenario at work today.

Where a communication could be sent out in reasonable time they are all voting for going for help. Even at there training level they would go for help and then come back and rappel into the hole. They would not wait for help before going back but they would get help coming. They feel the scenarios of what is probably wrong with the person is beyond most peoples training and you have now increased the time for help to get there by hours.

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If you don't rap down to assess and instead run for help, when you return I think you will find one of four situations:

1. He wasn't hurt or his injuries were not life-threatening. Long-term prognosis varies from full recovery to paralyzed for life, etc. Basically, he did not have problems with A, B or C. The choice you made was immaterial.

2. He was dead on impact or suffered injuries that were so severe there was nothing anyone could have done to save him. Death may occur in the canyon, while being transported or at the trauma center. The choice you made was immaterial.

3. He suffered injuries that were life-threatening, but beyond your ability to treat. He needs to receive definitive care as quickly as possible. You MIGHT have made the correct decision.

Problem with #3 is that the scenarios include things like head injuries that result in intracranial pressure. You can't treat it in the field. But severe head injuries often result in vomiting, which can create airway problems. He will die faster from the airway problem than he will from the intracranial pressure. With basic first aid skills, you could deal with the airway problem. Another example might be internal bleeding that results in volume shock. You can't treat the internal bleeding in the field, but you can treat for shock to buy him some time.

4. He is dead or will die, but basic first aid - ABCs - could have saved him. You made the wrong decision.

Kinda bothers me when scenarios like this are tweaked with variables like, "What if you don't know how to ascend back out?" or "What if you don't know basic first aid?" Just pondering the scenario should encourage everyone to acquire these skills.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Kinda bothers me when scenarios like this are tweaked with variables like, "What if you don't know how to ascend back out?" or "What if you don't know basic first aid?" Just pondering the scenario should encourage everyone to acquire these skills.

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+1

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

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You got it.

I guess another thing I'd add to the list would be to get that pack off your back, and, onto your harness. It may have contributed to his "going over" and losing control of the rappel. But...when he smacked against the cliff wall, it was the only thing that prevented him from direct contract with the cliff too.

Here's how I rigged for Englestead:

http://mtncommunity.org/dcforum/User...fe38e10e15.jpg

I'm not a big fan of that munter hitch on the leg loop. Much bigger fan of adding another rappel device, from the harness, on, say, a full length sling. Smooth. The munter is way too twisty. But, I'd still have a biner more'n likely on each leg loop and one or more handy on the harness in case I wanted to direct the rope back up in a Z.

Also, not a big fan of that rappel device (B-52) as its too "wide open" for my preference (amongst other things). I more commonly use ATCs and/or ATC pro or guides but I've also become quite enamored with my new Petzl Reverso 3 too.

I sometimes add a biner or two to an ATC to give more friction. Its a nice trick to know.

Yeah, I'd never start a rappel that fast. Commonly done, though, when I see some folks practising rappelling, they're all about the bouncy bouncy rapido style. Seasoned climbers typically never do that, as maybe they've gone off so many sketchy anchors, and, ruined a few ropes over edges too, that they're much more cautious and careful as a group, methinks. Slow and steady. It ain't about a bungee jump adrenaline rush, its about gettin' down effectively.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

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You got it.

I guess another thing I'd add to the list would be to get that pack off your back, and, onto your harness. It may have contributed to his "going over" and losing control of the rappel. But...when he smacked against the cliff wall, it was the only thing that prevented him from direct contract with the cliff too.

Here's how I rigged for Englestead:

http://mtncommunity.org/dcforum/User...fe38e10e15.jpg

I'm not a big fan of that munter hitch on the leg loop. Much bigger fan of adding another rappel device, from the harness, on, say, a full length sling. Smooth. The munter is way too twisty. But, I'd still have a biner more'n likely on each leg loop and one or more handy on the harness in case I wanted to direct the rope back up in a Z.

Also, not a big fan of that rappel device (B-52) as its too "wide open" for my preference (amongst other things). I more commonly use ATCs and/or ATC pro or guides but I've also become quite enamored with my new Petzl Reverso 3 too.

I sometimes add a biner or two to an ATC to give more friction. Its a nice trick to know.

Yeah, I'd never start a rappel that fast. Commonly done, though, when I see some folks practising rappelling, they're all about the bouncy bouncy rapido style. Seasoned climbers typically never do that, as maybe they've gone off so many sketchy anchors, and, ruined a few ropes over edges too, that they're much more cautious and careful as a group, methinks. Slow and steady. It ain't about a bungee jump adrenaline rush, its about gettin' down effectively.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

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And of course, one would want to play with and understand all the variables in a safe environment, as in 10 feet off the ground. I have used the munter hitch leg loop biner several times on the Heaps rap. It is somewhat of a problem as it will try to unclip from the carabiner, but it is adjustable "in combat".

Tom

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Looking at the news report, and what's been said here, I guess this guy's life was saved by a combination of:

a) A knot
b) bouncing off the cliff a few times
c) a less than effectual autobloc
d) third degree burns to the fingers

Does that sound reasonable?

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

Or am I way off base here?

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You discount his claims of divine intervention???

T

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Looking at the news report, and what's been said here, I guess this guy's life was saved by a combination of:

a) A knot
b) bouncing off the cliff a few times
c) a less than effectual autobloc
d) third degree burns to the fingers

Does that sound reasonable?

I was looking at the video and thinking right away, "He's going way too fast". I've never done a rap that long, and not on 8mm rope, but as a newbie I think I'd at least want a biner on my leg loop, probably with the rope already through it (and a munter hitch?) at the start, if not a full Z-rig.

And probably two biners on the ATC/belay loop.

Or am I way off base here?

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You discount his claims of divine intervention???

T

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Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

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Yes, no problem. Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

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Yes, no problem. Tom

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Speaking of borrowed ropes; I never got back to you about borrowing for Engelstead. After talking it over in detail with Josh and then explaining the plan to our other guys we

[quote=Don]

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Oh yes, silly me! I forgot about the angel catching him at the bottom :haha:

Are we still OK to borrow those ropes, btw?

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Yes, no problem. Tom

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Speaking of borrowed ropes; I never got back to you about borrowing for Engelstead. After talking it over in detail with Josh and then explaining the plan to our other guys we

[quote=Don]One question though. Is there enough room on that ledge for me to hang out and supervise the transition for the guy who

[quote=Iceaxe][quote=Don]One question though. Is there enough room on that ledge for me to hang out and supervise the transition for the guy who

Since it seems that a great deal of this accident was due to a lack of friction I have some newbie questions relating to friction on a rappel device. I am somewhat new to canyoneering and most of my rappelling experience is in climbing i.e. thicker ropes and double strand rappelling.
I recently purchased a Petzel Piranha to rappel with and I really enjoy the ability to adjust friction on it but I haven't done a long rappel on it. I was wondering what friction mode it needs to be put into to be comparable to say the friction from an ATC guide (which I previously used)? If I were to do the 300' rappel that this thread is discussing would I need to put as much friction on the the pirahna as possible AND use a leg carabiner or would the piranha by itself be able to provide enough friction?
I apologize because I do realize this question is likely a bit ambiguous but I would rather ask here then get a video posted of me here falling down a 300' rappel.
As a frame a reference for the friction I would need I weigh about 155 lb.

One other factor that may have been an issue, this guy's pack seemed to flip him over. So, not enough friction and a pack he was fighting. You lose the heavy pack fight when the bottom drops out from under you (free hanging) I just looked at the video again and it looks like he flips upside down before the first bounce off the wall. Pack weight??? There is a point in the video that you can't quite see the guy but the pack weight seems to be a factor also. Some don't realize that the added weight of the pack affects greatly how you rap. I will never forget the time I forgot to dangle my pack on the second stage of the last series of raps out of Heaps. Oh how I fought that rap all the way to the pearch. That was not a happy rap.