I guess we will continue to disagree on that, Ice, but I think we can both agree that people should know what they are doing, no matter what techniques they choose to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandolf nee Iceaxe
Tom
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I guess we will continue to disagree on that, Ice, but I think we can both agree that people should know what they are doing, no matter what techniques they choose to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandolf nee Iceaxe
Tom
Thanks guys! If everyone agreed, life would be boring. :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tom
I see both sides of the argument. At this time I will stay on Shane's side of the line, but when more knowledgeable and confident, I would like to move to Tom's side. A big part of the canyoneering experience for me is the gear and use thereof.
My progression started with long ropes doubled over or two roped tied together. I always double line rapped to begin with. It was safe where we went, it was easy to configure and there wasn
Unfortunately for everyone, some of the people involved on the day of the accident may never learn some of the bigger lessons in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Kaitlyn, wish you the best
EW
Edit*** nevermind.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiese
http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg
Not rigging for contingency?
Pull cord side doesn't have a knot in it? And is full length?
I just don't understand why folks aren't just rappelling double strand in this situation. Better friction. Less chance of wear and tear on the rope.
If you're not really rigging for a contingency and you have a single 60m rope, why wouldn't you rig for a double rappel?
I'd think that last rappel in Pine Creek should be standard to thread a single 60m rope, doubled, through the anchor and rappel double strand. Double check prior to launch that you have both strands in your ATC/rappel device, and, if folks aren't saavy on the steep rappel thing, put them on belay from above with another rope.
We'll continue to see accidents with the biner/knot block method of single strand rappelling. There's been how many now at the final rappel in Pine Creek? A couple. And, in other locations in Zion too, fatalities and close calls.
Sure, nice to have in the tool box, but, its been over promoted IMHO.
Anyhoo...
-Brian in SLC
Brian,
On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle. I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
The problem seems to be with the biner block and why people do this is beyond me, but they block the rope and then drop the pull down side right then. Why??? It makes no sense to me. We use a biner on about every rappel and the last guy, who should be the most exp. drops the pull when it is his turn.
Thanks
Mark
We pre-mark the middle of all our ropes. There is a special ink marker that you can purchase for this task.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
:2thumbs:
Then it's not a 200... :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Just for the record.... we measured the drop at 96 feet.
I just make the center of my ropes with a Sharpie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicia
:cool2:
I've tried both the ink and a sharpie and they both wear off pretty quick, seems to be gone in about one trip.
Mark
I blacken out about a 9" section of rope, a small section doesn't work so hot as it does wear off some. With 9" marked I can always see the mid-point. If it gets hard to see I just whip out my trusty Sharpie and mark it again.
Now.... guess how I know that I marked exactly 9"????..... :roflol:
By the size of your foot? :bootyshake: :roflol:
:lol8:
You match the ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is now at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.
Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.
T
Q: How long is a 200 foot rope?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
A: It depends.
My ropes are about 202 feet when new, but they tend to shrink. How much? Hard to say.
Tom
What about a double biner block? Any disadvantages? We did that with a large group on this rap last summer and zipped folks (safely) down in short order. We actually used both strands and went single line. By the time the person at the top got their courage up and hooked up, the other person had touched bottom. I was able to fireman belay both sides of the rope. Comments? Helmet is on.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
So a double-clove hitch (ie, with both strands) on a biner? Big Biner? Sounds good. Can also just tie off each side and clip up to the anchor itself. Helps to get the start point as high as possible - easiest start for the noobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
Tom
With my rope management skills dumping 200 ft out on the ground then feeding would become the biggest spaghetti mess known to man.
My ropes will double on that rappell but both ends are off the ground. The only times we double is if using stone knot to rappel both strands (best knot Tom ever taught me) or if the last guy down is nervous about the pull. A double 9 mm wet pretty much sucks to rappel on.
Mark
I do what Tom suggests if I have to exactly hit the middle. I start by flaking the rope into a pile, keeping track of either end. Then, feed one end of the rope through the rapides, match ends, and start pulling the rope through and lower it down, whilst making sure that each side doesn't slip by maintaining a pretty tight grip on both sides of the rope as you feed the one side through the rapides.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
I also have a couple of other methods I use. I deploy rope a bunch. So, its always a game to me to see if I can nail a drop, by sight, with the exact amount of rope. So, I'd probably start this game at the last drop by taking one rope end, feeding it through the rapide, then pulling through the amount I think would hit bottom, and piling that initially in a stack on the ledge. Then I'd probably fix myself to the anchor, lean out, and lower both ends and see how close I got. Sometimes I toss it off, but, when deploying the full rope, I like to feed it in stages from the ends so it won't get fussy (nothing worse than a tangle on a free hanging rappel).
I can kinda measure out rope by knowing the distance, and, my wing span is around 6 feet, so, for 100 feet, I'll measure off 20 5 foot lengths, give or take, to initially estimate the amount of rope that needs to be out.
Bi-colored ropes are super nice. Middle marks can be nice, but, they wear out and are sometimes super hard to see (that "anthracite" color Mammut rope for instance). Also, there's been a number of accidents (fatalities) when folks mistake a "near end" mark for the middle as of late, and, my bet is that rope folks won't be marking the near ends anymore.
Another trick I do, which, I'm guessing I won't recommend to most folks, is that it isn't that important to exactly nail the middle of the rope on especially that rappel. I switch to a two handed break hand near the bottom if the ends aren't matched, and, will "take" on the short end and let the long end run through the rapides at the top if the ends aren't matched. This takes practise to feel comfy with, but, in actuality I do it all the time so it works for me. For most steep rappels from super solid anchors like fat rapides, the rope can move a bit on those anchors and not be a problem. You wouldn't want to do that on a sling only rappel!! Can be a nice technique to deploy on the fly. Sure beats riggin' a Prusik and stopping to fix the problem, especially free hanging.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
I use this method a lot. particularly on a rappel like the final Pine Creek. I think Brian was the first to show it to me many moons ago. It's really simple and easy once you are comfortable with it. It also really speeds things up because you just get the length's kinda close and go.
:rockon: