Scout Training?

So I attended the UNPC University of Scouting's Canyoneering class this weekend. And come to find out, the presenter didn't have a clue about the looming liability issues that we all care about. At the moment the UNPC does NOT really have a functioning climbing committee. However, I did talk to the Council Caving Chairperson, and she told me what has been stated in previous threads and communications. CLAS Ropes is the place to go to become a "certified" climbing instructor; thus allowing a scout leader to manage a climbing and rappelling program for their Units.

Interesting enough, it was also mentioned that BSA National doesn't have a clue about what Brandt Jones is doing with Canyoneering LOL. sounds like there is a bit of a disconnect there! who knows what is true anymore?!?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exergy

... I've taken "a group of friends from our neighborhood" out and have their parents sign a waiver acknowledging the inherent risks and releasing me from liability. Not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on but at least I don't worry anymore.

---

You should worry. In 2001, the Utah Supreme Court took away the ability of a parent to waive a child's negligence claim. The case is Hawkins v. Peart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exergy

Ignorance is bliss.

---

Having BSA policy explained to you and choosing to not follow it isn't ignorance. :ne_nau:

I understand the difficulties and frustrations that can come with endeavoring to follow BSA policies. But choosing to do otherwise (i.e. exposing minors to risks by not having the appropriate training and following appropriate standards) is selfish and unwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuya

Interesting enough, it was also mentioned that BSA National doesn't have a clue about what Brandt Jones is doing with Canyoneering LOL. sounds like there is a bit of a disconnect there! who knows what is true anymore?!?!

---

So that I may independently verify this information, would you kindly indicate who at BSA National indicated that they don't have a clue what Brandt Jones is doing?

It's to bad that it has gotten so convoluted. I now just take a few of my 12 year old sons friends and their dad's. We use to do Zion every other year as a scout camp. Subway one day order ville another. Young men talk about it at their mission farewells. For many youth it was the highlight of their youth.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

You should worry. In 2001, the Utah Supreme Court took away the ability of a parent to waive a child's negligence claim. The case is Hawkins v. Peart.

---

Good reference. Will update the form to include the child's signature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

Having BSA policy explained to you and choosing to not follow it isn't ignorance.

---

True statement. Note that ignorance was never claimed of BSA policy, just the value of the waiver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

I understand the difficulties and frustrations that can come with endeavoring to follow BSA policies. But choosing to do otherwise (i.e. exposing minors to risks by not having the appropriate training and following appropriate standards) is selfish and unwise.

---

Unwise?
* Perhaps an understatement
* BSA representatives don't present a united front
* BSA climbing/canyoneering policy disjointed
* Little precedence between councils
* Attended 2-day canyoneering certification event with the ambition of gaining certification; was advised at the end of the first day that the course was not as advertised and none of the 20-ish attendees would gain certification; due diligence attempted at least once
* The system has been broken for a number of years (at least one generation of scouts that I'm aware of) and time marches on; some consider it irresponsible to deny upcoming generations the life experiences provided to previous generations due to lack of sponsoring organization
* One of the unintended consequences of this broken policy is that youth are diverted to less than high-adventure activities such as "hotel camping" and video games
* Not sure that these lesser activities were envisioned by the founders of scouting
* Some feel it is their civic responsibility to provide high adventure experiences whether or not a recognized organization supports those opportunities with a documented process and structure
* Previous experience at organized scout camps has been good and bad; one in particular included rappelling into the Paris Caves in a manner inconsistent with BSA climbing policy
* Current BSA policy doesn't take into account the wide variety of knowledge, skills, abilities, experience, training, standards or personal judgement; it is unreasonable to expect that BSA policy would cover all possibilities; it is hoped that BSA policy will progress by expanding allowable definitions
* Certain individuals will exercise good judgement whether or not a structured organization recognizes their knowledge, skills, abilities
* The current climbing policy of the BSA is unfortunate and best wishes are offered to those who are attempting to make the policy friendly and safe, especially the volunteers

Selfish?
* Not neccesarily
* Taking youth to lesser adventure activities to avoid personal liability can also be considered selfish
* Insurance coverage does not change the likelihood of bad things happening
* Insurance coverage does not change the risk mitigation efforts of some individuals (+ or -)
* Life is short; one must sometimes consider and accept the risk of action with or without a legal structure for protection

My experience has been if your trying this concept with an lds group, your leaders should be striking this down. When the first presidency sent out that letter (which is on bogley somewhere) it shot down canyoneering without certified training. Scouting or not. Our YW are wanting me to take them on a small route in Moab and got shot down. I just gave up and now go as stated as dad's and son's. Yes still accepting a bunch of liability. If we stopped doing things because of liability might as well take up knitting. But hey what about the needles.....

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Oh and now Arches has restricted us to a few guys. So much for youth groups in the park. Can't win for trying.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

So that I may independently verify this information, would you kindly indicate who at BSA National indicated that they don't have a clue what Brandt Jones is doing?

---

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuya

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

---

Thanks! :2thumbs:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exergy

Good reference. Will update the form to include the child's signature.

Unwise?

.............

Selfish?
.............

---

Thank you for the very thoughtful response. You make some great points. :cool2:

Please consider that obtaining the child's signature won't likely serve as a waiver of the child's claim of negligence. An attorney can help properly advise you on liability waivers and their effectiveness. Perhaps you wish to remain ignorant. I think it would be a good idea for you to reconsider, and take the time to obtain a solid understanding of the legal consequences of undertaking higher-risk activities with minors, regardless of whether it is under the auspices of an organization or not. The law does not look well upon an injured minor, especially when an adult is involved.

I have seen too many Scout groups in the canyons that were unqualified and unprepared and I tend to have a visceral reaction to Scout leaders that try and skirt the rules or ignore them. Perhaps that isn't the case with you specifically, and if it isn't, I apologize. But, as a broad generalization, I stand by my statement that Scout leaders that knowingly violate BSA policies are selfish and unwise.

I agree with your assessment of the limited resources for Scout leaders and lack of support for a canyoneering program, at least outside the GSLC and Trapper Trails. It's unfortunate and frustrating. I also heartily agree with your assessment of the need for boys to experience challenging activities in the outdoors. Where I think we differ is drawing the line between undertaking higher risk activities with with minors, and when and how it is appropriate to do so. I respect your viewpoint, even if I disagree with some of it. I also hope that others who are developing their own viewpoint will carefully consider the risks involved, obtain the proper training, use good judgment, and approach the matter with caution. There are non-technical canyons and a whole host of other challenging activities for youth to participate in that don't involve a screen or a cabin/condo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

I stand by my statement that Scout leaders that knowingly violate BSA policies are selfish and unwise..

---

...and hypocrites.

Quote:

---

A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal,...Obedient,...

---

I'm pretty sure this not only applies to Scouts, but leaders as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuya

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

---

Unfortunately this is yet another example of UNPC not having a clue. National is well aware of what Brandt has been doing, in fact he is now some kind of regional person over several councils. He will have to delineate all of that. Brandt also went back to national and presented his plan to them before he implemented it. UNPC is clueless, but I digress.

Climbing Policy Update for the UNPC:

I recently completed a BSA Level 2 Climbing course in the UNPC. This was a 35 hour class where everything from from topping out was covered and practical rescue skills were demonstrated and tested.

I was encouraged by the class. The training received was solid and definitely prepares Unit leaders to effectively manage a simple climbing and rappelling program.

However, this class did not do any kind of training for canyoneering. When I ask the UNPC Climbing Director (Debbie Spoons as of right now) about canyoneering policy, she doesn't have a answer for me. I'm hoping to get this figured out soon.

Good luck. I started down that path in the GSLC. And found hours of training and recertification. In my experience it was to much work. A lot of rules and regulations to keep up on. In my opinion it just isn't worth the liability to run a activity. Maybe it could be doable if that was my only responsibility.

Thanks! this whole process is nutz!

I was thinking if UNPC don't have a canyon policy yet. You might be good to go with just being a CL2 instructor. The GSLC doesn't have a set caving policy yet although i heard its in the works. So all I have to do is a tour permit and we go caving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whansen

I was thinking if UNPC don't have a canyon policy yet. You might be good to go with just being a CL2 instructor. The GSLC doesn't have a set caving policy yet although i heard its in the works. So all I have to do is a tour permit and we go caving.

---

Canyoneering is specifically stated as requiring specialized training in Climb On Safely. Just being a CL2 instructor isn't enough. Also, the GSLC climbing policy specifically applies to caving. It is also an area that Climb On Safely requires specialized training beyond CL2. I wouldn't assume that filing a tour plan will protect you if you do not adhere to the requirements of Climbing on Safely, the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the GSLC climbing policy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

Canyoneering is specifically stated as requiring specialized training in Climb On Safely. Just being a CL2 instructor isn't enough. Also, the GSLC climbing policy specifically applies to caving. It is also an area that Climb On Safely requires specialized training beyond CL2. I wouldn't assume that filing a tour plan will protect you if you do not adhere to the requirements of Climbing on Safely, the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the GSLC climbing policy.

---

I understand that. But if a council like UNPC does not have a policy in place that states what enough is to run a canyon activity what are they supposed to do.
And in the GSLC the climbing policy that I learned and was tested on only applies to caving if your using ropes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whansen

I understand that. But if a council like UNPC does not have a policy in place that states what enough is to run a canyon activity what are they supposed to do.

---

You can't run the activity as a BSA Climbing Instructor in that council. I think that is the source of the frustration expressed elsewhere in this thread. Climb on Safely requires specialized training for canyoneering, caving, etc. If your council doesn't have approved specialized training from BSA National for these activities, they you can't undertake the activity merely as a BSA Climbing Instructor. Absence of a council policy, or participating in a council that doesn't comply with BSA National policies doesn't create an opportunity to violate Climb on Safely or the Guide to Safe Scouting. It just means you'll probably sink on the same ship as your council if an accident occurs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whansen

And in the GSLC the climbing policy that I learned and was tested on only applies to caving if your using ropes.

---

I think you are generally correct on that. But you still have to follow other BSA polices, including the Guide to Safe Scouting, which references the BSA Caving Policy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airman

You can't run the activity as a BSA Climbing Instructor in that council. I think that is the source of the frustration expressed elsewhere in this thread. Climb on Safely requires specialized training for canyoneering, caving, etc. If your council doesn't have approved specialized training from BSA National for these activities, they you can't undertake the activity merely as a BSA Climbing Instructor. Absence of a council policy, or participating in a council that doesn't comply with BSA National policies doesn't create an opportunity to violate Climb on Safely or the Guide to Safe Scouting. It just means you'll probably sink on the same ship as your council if an accident occurs.



I think you are generally correct on that. But you still have to follow other BSA polices, including the Guide to Safe Scouting, which references the BSA Caving Policy.

---

Which takes me back to my origianl comment to Kuya. "Good Luck"


Yes, I use the Guide to Safe Scouting and BSA Caving Policy with every caving trip we go on. These policys are very simple. And the best thing is the Caving Policy requires you to have caving experience but not days of BSA training and testing. But some day soon I'm sure it will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whansen

Which takes me back to my origianl comment to Kuya. "Good Luck"


Yes, I use the Guide to Safe Scouting and BSA Caving Policy with every caving trip we go on. These policys are very simple. And the best thing is the Caving Policy requires you to have caving experience but not days of BSA training and testing. But some day soon I'm sure it will.

---

UNPC has a pretty extensive caving policy now. have you talked to Debbie Spoons (The UNPC Caving Chairperson). From talking to her any scout troop that wants to go caving needs to take a training from her. There is also list of approved caves that BSA Troops can go into.

No I haven't talked to her. But I have talk to GSLC people. It would be interesting to see what UNPC has built in addition to the national policy.

BSA National recently updated its climbing web page. It includes a link to download the recently-released manual, Belay On, which I believe is a replacement for Topping Out.

Below is a link on climbing from BSA National. It describes the how the Climbing Program must be run on a Council Level if they want to train their own BSA Level I or BSA Level II instructors. I am not sure if UNPC has their program approved yet. That would be a great question to Debbie Spoons.

http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/COPE.aspx

Unit climbing MUST follow the 8 principles in the Climb on Safely document. Please read and understand before you take youth out on ropes. It is very clear.

:popcorn:
.

BSA has made a lot of changes.

I hope people will understand the need to have trained instructors.

Brandt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bbjones

BSA has made a lot of changes.

I hope people will understand the need to have trained instructors.

Brandt

---

what do you think of the new Belay On book. To me it tries to encompass way too much information. I think the BSA should keep COPE and Climbing separate.

Can anyone list what training is required to take Scouts Canyoneering now? Every website seems to contradict another one?

The definitive answer is found in the document "Climb on Safely". See the section on qualified instructors. There is a council that has a Canyoneering training program that has been approved by BSA National, and some others are working on getting approved.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moab mark

Can anyone list what training is required to take Scouts Canyoneering now? Every website seems to contradict another one?

---

Need have specialized training.... whatever that means.

It seems like this thread just keeps going round and round.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whansen

It seems like this thread just keeps going round and round.

---

It is, but at least the circle is getting tighter. the UNPC actually has a legit BSA Climbing Level I & II certification course now. The first class was held in January, and there are a few others in the Council scheduled for this month.

Canyoneering is still a mess though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuya

It is, but at least the circle is getting tighter. the UNPC actually has a legit BSA Climbing Level I & II certification course now. The first class was held in January, and there are a few others in the Council scheduled for this month.

Canyoneering is still a mess though.

---

Yea it's discouraging. IMO BSA or those that have been put in charge of establishing the policy have made the process so difficult and cumbersome that they do not want Scouts Canyoneering. Be nice if there was a list of Canyons with a reasonable amount of training you can take Scouts thru. Orderville Subway come to mind.

Has any Bogleyite gone thru GSLC complete program and are now able to take Scouts Canyoneering? If you have could you give us a precise list of what was required?

http://www.gslc-bsa.org/document/cou...g-policy/74343

Does anyone know where the link is to be a Canyon Leader? Also what Canyons are on the list for a Level 1 Canyon Leader?

I have been thru all of the training. A couple of issues sharing the training. It is only valid in the GSLC. Currently there is no plan for any cross council training with the UNPC, for a lot of reasons. The UNPC climbing program has not been approved by national. Specialized training I read as a amga guide with some sort of canyoneering endorsement, or equivalent.

I know this is a mess. I wish some leadership in the UNPC would pull their heads out and realize what a disaster they have created because " they are the enlightened council".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Geckobiker, you may need an extra large bucket of popcorn before reading the following.

I seriously doubt that the UNPC has had their program approved. Why would BSA approve a council's program that doesn’t follow the prescribed curriculum?

Interesting. 35 hour course using Topping out. BSA released their new manual, Belay On, earlier this year. Why didn’t the UNPC use the new book?

From one of the links in an above post, I downloaded their course syllabi and found them to be very informative. There is also a great resource describing the process for councils to get their training programs evaluated.

In the NCAP manual it says that the prerequisite for Climbing Level II instructor is to be a Climbing Level I instructor. (pages sq-409-2,3)

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/ou...df/430-056.pdf


Kuya, were you all ready a Climbing Level I instructor before you took the Level II course?


Climbing Level I instructor course = 26 hours

Climbing Level II instructor course = 42 hours

If I can do my math correctly that adds up to 68 hours of training not 35.

This is just to take scouts on a simple top-rope climb or rappel.

The AMGA requires 43 hours of training and assessment not including their prerequisites that are extensive for their single pitch instructor.

As I looked over the BSA courses, they seamed to involve team building and other BSA type items. This could account for the additional hours. I loved that the first lesson plan after “getting acquainted” is “ Leave No Trace.” There are other lessons like “Basic Maintenance” that don’t seam to apply to taking scouts up AF canyon. Perhaps, this is where Kuya’s class was shorter than prescribed in the training syllabi. Kuya also made the statement that he thinks the new book has too much information. I found just the opposite. There is little to no mention of Canyoneering, Ice climbing, lead climbing, aid climbing, canopy tours, technical caving or even much about rescue techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised that future books dabble in or include theses items. A future book will probably include the information from the scouts caving booklet.

It looks to me that the BSA is trying to actually develop climbing instructors. That is to say single pitch instructors. Their program appears to be inline with national and, one could argue, international standards.

I will ask the question again. Why would the boy scouts approve a program that doesn’t follow the prescribed course curriculum?


AND THEN THERE IS CANYONEERING

When I read Climb on Safely, for canyoneering it looks as if a top-rope “guide” is the minimum amount of training required who then has “specific training and skill in instructing” canyoneering.

A year or so ago, I spoke with a guy from the scouts in Salt Lake county. They seem to have a program for training canyon guides. I really doubt their program is even close to a true canyon guide. I was also told that the basic training to go canyoneering all starts with, using a term outside of BSA but one that I would hope all on this forum would understand, an AMGA single pitch guide who then has canyoneering specific training as an instructor. I don’t think there are even 10 individuals here on Bogley with anything close to this training level.

I only mention the following because most of the scouts in Utah are associated with the Mormon church. There is document where the Mormon prophet says you can go climbing with “trained or certified guides.” I won’t debate what “certified” means. It looks as if the Mormon church understands that to go climbing or rappelling you need to go with someone that is properly trained.

The question is continually asked, "What is required?" There are a lot of people on Bogley who have called the council in Salt Lake County and didn’t get the answer they were looking for. They then bitched and complained about it. There are even a few individuals who started and decided they didn’t want to invest the time to do it. Sarcastically stated and asked, “I’ve done pine creek before. Why can’t I take the scouts down Imlay?”

I was told by the guy in Salt Lake, that they had been trying for years to get all the councils in Utah to get a canyoneering training programs that would be acceptable to everyone. From what I understand, the council up north has a canyoneering specific program that is just for their area and doesn’t apply to other councils. Their program was probably scrutinized by their attorneys and their uppity-ups. I would wager, their program is just approved for their council.

A year or so ago I ran into a group of scouts from Arizona who had just completed a trip down Pine Creek. They were lead by some canyon guides from the council in Salt Lake. One of the scoutmasters told me that they were going to develop a canyoneering program for their scouts. I wouldn't doubt it if they have done just that.

I also ran into a group of scouts in Colorado doing some ice climbing. I was told they have a fully approved ice climbing program in their area.

Liability. We all seem to blame the attorneys. I tend to blame people who think they are better than they really are. They have an accident. Then the attorneys get involved.

We all push the limit. The activities I enjoy have a window of safety. Sometimes that window is small. I hope I will always return home safely. I hope my companions and friends will return home safely. I hope that those whom I have convinced I know what I am doing will always return home safely.

Are we/you willing to take responsibility for another person’s life?

I too hope Kuya and friends can get this figured out.

Geckobiker, did you finish your bucket of popcorn?

Mac

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mac

Kuya, were you all ready a Climbing Level I instructor before you took the Level II course?


Climbing Level I instructor course = 26 hours

Climbing Level II instructor course = 42 hours

If I can do my math correctly that adds up to 68 hours of training not 35.

This is just to take scouts on a simple top-rope climb or rappel.

The AMGA requires 43 hours of training and assessment not including their prerequisites that are extensive for their single pitch instructor.

As I looked over the BSA courses, they seamed to involve team building and other BSA type items. This could account for the additional hours. I loved that the first lesson plan after “getting acquainted” is “ Leave No Trace.” There are other lessons like “Basic Maintenance” that don’t seam to apply to taking scouts up AF canyon. Perhaps, this is where Kuya’s class was shorter than prescribed in the training syllabi. Kuya also made the statement that he thinks the new book has too much information. I found just the opposite. There is little to no mention of Canyoneering, Ice climbing, lead climbing, aid climbing, canopy tours, technical caving or even much about rescue techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised that future books dabble in or include theses items. A future book will probably include the information from the scouts caving booklet.


I too hope Kuya and friends can get this figured out.

---

Slow day at work haha, I actually read your whole post LOL!

When I referred to the new book containing to much info, I was complaining about them combining COPE and climbing. I would rather that content be separated. Just thought I'd make that clear :)

Additionally, I'd rather not talk about the 4 climbing certification classes I took in the UNPC since 2012. They made me think I was covered by bsa and actually trained to go climbing and canyoneering. Come to find out, I was most likely ruining programs with out the bsa really backing me.... anyway, yes I was supposedly level 1 & 2 "certified" before this class.

The climbing director in the UNPC works closely with national. (At least she says she does.) The last class she did was really good. I feel that leaders that take that class will leave prepared to run unit level climbing programs safely.

Canyoneering policy had not been made.

http://www.utahscouts.org/event/1677630

That is the link for anyone who wants to participate in the next round of Climbing training for the UNPC.

So I talked to Trappers Trails yesterday. Still somewhat confused but according to them you need to have Climb on Certification and Commercial training. They consider ACA or Dark Horse or ...... as qualified training. Exactly how much training you need they didn't seem to have an answer. They will not accept UNPC training. They will accept GSLC training.