Canyoneering death in the Subway

Thanks for pointing out my accidental pun....that was not my intention and now I feel awkward. I guess you will have company!

[QUOTE]Hanging in a harness for too long, especially upside down, can cut off a climber's blood circulation, said Mike Banach, a guide who is familiar with the Subway and says many hikers are left at their own peril because commercial guiding is prohibited inside the park

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

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Originally Posted by xxnitsuaxx

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

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Amen.

I.e.: The guiding in the Tetons makes me sick every time I go up there. The National Park System was set up to avoid the pitfalls of exploitation and aberrant "capitalism". Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea.

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Originally Posted by xxnitsuaxx

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

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x2

x3. We in the community have, are, and will face restrictions in the name of safety. Maybe guiding will be required ultimately. Who knows with the nanny state mentality course the country is on.

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Originally Posted by xxnitsuaxx

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

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X4

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some comments from Legacy.com:

September 24, 2012 Doctor Hosobuchi was my doctor in 1985 and 1987. He was a wonderful doctor. His skills fixed my back. I was barely walking and now thanks to him, I walking fine now. My heart goes out to his family and friends. I will always be grateful and thankful. He was in my life for a short while. ~
Janet Clark,
Antioch, California




September 22, 2012 Thank you for saving my life in 1986, Dr. Hosobuchi, even though you kept thinking I would die....I am alive because of what you did.
Thank you ~
Mousie Zavala,
Parma, Idaho





September 22, 2012 I AND MY FAMILY SEND OUR HEART-FELT SYMPATHY AND PRAYERS OF ON-GOING BLESSINGS OF COMFORT TO THE FAMILY OF YOSHIO HOSOBUCHI. I WILL FOREVER BE THANKFUL AND HAVE GRADITUDE FOR DR. HOSOBUCHI SAVING MY LIFE WHEN I HAD A CEREBRAL ANEURYSM IN 1977. HIS EXCELLENT SKILLS AS A NEUROSURGEON WERE TRULY A BLESSING TO ME AND TO OTHERS AT UC MOFFIT HOSPITAL IN SAN FRANCISCO. AS GOD BLESSED ME THRU HIM, I PRAY THAT GOD WILL BLESS ALL OF YOU AND LOVINGLY SUPPORT AND HELP YOU ALL WITH YOU LOSS.
SINCERELY, LORENE JOHNSON AND FAMILY OF OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 22, 2012.

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Originally Posted by xxnitsuaxx

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

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X5. Please don't allow guiding in Zion

The interview with the guide in the articles brings up an important point that I think many people have missed.

The couple in this tragic accident had a descent of the Subway on their "bucket list". Because of regulations they couldn't hire a guide to take them there safely, so they do what is allowed - they take a class, just before their canyon, to learn the skills to get them through, then descend it sans guide.

I am willing to bet that, had a guide service been allowed to take them through, they would have done so in lieu of taking the classes, perhaps preventing this tragedy.

But guides aren't allowed, because we don't want them competing with recreational canyoneers for permits. Looking at it another way, guiding is not allowed in Zion in response to a stupidly thought out and applied permit system. You can then apply a flow of logic that can, at least in a small way, implicate the permit system as a factor in this tragedy.

I'm all for guiding in Zion, but they need to reform the permit system (relaxing or removing quotas) to make it equitable, and I hope they do so.

I hope people remember to mention this to Jock when he starts asking for public comments on the permit system again down the road sometime.

M

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Originally Posted by mdd

I'm all for guiding in Zion, but they need to reform the permit system (relaxing or removing quotas) to make it equitable, and I hope they do so.

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Timing, specific resource management, and number of guided trips is also key. For example, in trade routes, guide services could be required to run trips off-hours, or off-season. Off season, there is no competition for permits already, except in super high-demand canyons such as Mystery and Subway. Practically no-one is doing Telephone (hardly ever, really).

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Originally Posted by mdd

But guides aren't allowed, because we don't want them competing with recreational canyoneers for permits. Looking at it another way, guiding is not allowed in Zion in response to a stupidly thought out and applied permit system.

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Not exactly.... guiding was prohibited in Zion long before a permit system was established. So to say guiding is baned because of permits is not entirely accurrate.

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Originally Posted by hank moon

Timing, specific resource management, and number of guided trips is also key. For example, in trade routes, guide services could be required to run trips off-hours, or off-season.

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I'd prefer to not let the guiding genie out of the bottle under any circumstance.

I remember the day when Zion backcountry permits didn't exist, and I remember the day when they were free, voluntary and used as an extra measure of safety.... And now we have the current permit mess.... all because we let the permit genie out of the bottle......

YMMV :cool2:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Not exactly.... guiding was prohibited in Zion long before a permit system was established. So to say guiding is baned because of permits is not entirely accurrate.

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Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then. From the Zion BMP, appendix E (bolding is mine):

Should commercial guiding be allowed in the Primitive Zone?
172 comments received on this topic

• 37 percent (from form letter) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
• 45 percent (not form letters) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
• 15 percent stated that commercial guiding should be allowed
• 3 percent had no clear stand on commercial guiding
• The most frequent reason given by those opposed to guiding was concern that commercial operations would take all available permits. Many of those who indicated a support for commercial guiding indicated that a system should be put in place that eliminates competition between private and commercial groups for permits.
• The second most common reason given by those opposed to guiding was a belief that commercial operations do not have a place in Zion’s backcountry, and that there are other areas outside of Zion available for the activity.
• Those in favor of guiding commented on the ability of guides to promote safe canyoneering and resource conservation.

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Further in Appendix E, ZNP gives its rationale for banning guides:

A permit system is currently in place to keep use levels at, or near, proposed social or resource standards for canyoneering trips as well as overnight trips in the Primitive Zone.... An additional group of users would put additional pressure on all areas within the Primitive Zone.

Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate.

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This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.


M

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Originally Posted by mdd

This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.

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Is the permit system there to only have a quota of people in canyons or is it there as a safety thing too? I ask because from reports on this past weeks accident a group that had passed Mr. Hosobuchi told a Park ranger up top that there was an elderly couple still way behind. If the permit system were a way for ZNP to keep people safe then SAR could've been out that night. But from what this part that MDD has from ZNP sounds more like the permit system is strictly to limit numbers.
As for guiding in the canyons, a number of previous post by users on here say that they take people through canyons for "gifts" and other forms of payment

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Originally Posted by mdd

Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then.

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I agree completely that a limited number of permits has established and additional barrier to commercial guiding inside Zion.

I was just pointing out that Zion has never allowed guiding for various reasons.

I honestly don't think guiding would be allowed in a lot of NP's, like Grand Teton, if they had not of been grandfathered in when the NP was created.

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Originally Posted by mtn_dude

Is the permit system there to only have a quota of people in canyons or is it there as a safety thing too?

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Originally the permit system was a safety measure implemented after the Boy Scouts in Kolob disaster. It has now morphed into many different things and the original intent has all but been forgotten, as is standard operating procedure when a large bureaucracy gets it's hands on something. When the permit system was first implemented permits were free, there was no quote, obtaining a permit was encouraged but not required, obtaining a permit was volunteery.

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Originally Posted by mtn_dude

If the permit system were a way for ZNP to keep people safe then SAR could've been out that night.

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SAR doesn't typically launch for over due hikers. Lots of folks are forced into a bivy for various reasons and the large majority of them walk out on their own the next morning. It is not uncommon for the first groups emerging from the Subway the next day to have lost or slow hikers from the day before in tow. In this particular case I assume the rangers were keeping an eye on the situation and would have launched if the first groups through the next day had of reported a problem or reported not seeing the missing hikers.

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Originally Posted by mtn_dude

As for guiding in the canyons, a number of previous post by users on here say that they take people through canyons for "gifts" and other forms of payment

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You need to differentiate between "commercial guiding" and friendship guiding. A lot of guiding goes on inside Zion, its just not commercial. Scout leaders guiding scout troops, "Canyon leaders" guiding groups through at rendezvous, A friend buying the beer and pizza in appreciation, yada, yada...

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Hanging in a harness for too long, especially upside down, can cut off a climber's blood circulation, said Mike Banach, a guide who is familiar with the Subway and says many hikers are left at their own peril because commercial guiding is prohibited inside the park — they would compete for a limited number of hiking permits.
"People are going in without knowledge or experience and don't even have the ability to hire a guide," said Banach of Zion Mountain School in Springdale, Utah, the park's main entrance. He guides hikers outside Zion National Park.

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I'll have to admit those statements above made me kinda ill when I read them. Talk about self serving. Using a tragedy to promote your cause is kinda low ball especially while there's still blood in the air. They took a course from a local guide service before they went, and, learned a technique that may have been an issue. You want self serving? There ya go. Maybe they went to a rival company. Smell a lawsuit? I do.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Talk about self serving. Using a tragedy to promote your cause is kinda low ball especially while there's still blood in the air.

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That was my first thought when I read the comments.......

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Originally Posted by MattLeonard

THIS is the problem. Newbies shouldn't lead newbies. While Subway (or any other route) might IDEALLY be very simple and straightforward, tons of people (apparently including Guides) are sending people out there with the bare-bones skills needed to do the route under optimal conditions. When things go perfect - no problem. But when something goes differently, too many folks don't have the most basic of skills to even recognize that something is off, or to even know what their options are.

Not everyone needs to carry a bolt kit. Not everyone needs to have strong self-rescue skills. Not everyone has to be able to rig a 6-point equalized anchor and do an aussie-style rappel. But someone in EVERY party (if not everyone in the party) should at least know how to ascend a rope, and have the experience to evaluate common situations and recognize a potential pitfall before it happens.

...

Maybe this is me coming from a more conservative climbing ethic, but I was a bit shocked at how casual, and lax the culture around rappelling seemed to be in Zion. I appreciate the climbing mentors I had they rightfully make me super cautious when learning how to place protection, analyze and build anchors every which possible way, and learn self-rescue skills before I headed off in the backcountry. I felt that the canyoneering culture I encountered on this trip didn't share this ethic. As but one example - I was surprised that renting gear is the norm - you are hard pressed to find a climbing shop that would rent a harness and rope. (I'm not opposed to this - but I think it does reflect a much more casual safety ethic)

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Is this a great country, or what?

Seriously. People with little sense and less skill have the perfect right to go out and put themselves and others in danger.

I think this is a good thing. And I don't think there is anything good that can be done to "prevent it", though many of us work pretty hard to convince people that yes, they really maybe otta have some skills before venturing out into the wilderness.

As an experienced outdoors-person, Matt, I gotta ask - how the FRAK did you end up in the wrong canyon? Or did you intend to go there?

Thanks for taking care of the noobs who were also off-route.

By the by, 'renting gear' is not the norm. People who take a course with ZAC are priviliged to rent some gear and borrow ropes. I do not know the policy of the other shops. Also, people can rent some gear at ZAC on occasion, at the choice of the staff-person. When people forget harnesses or helmets, for instance, we consider it a good thing to help these people out, especially if they are prior customers. We reserve the right to refuse this service for any reason.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Bootboy

The National Park System was set up to avoid the pitfalls of exploitation and aberrant "capitalism".

Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea.

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Really? You must be reading different history books than I am. Your first statement is not supported by the facts.

The NPS in many parks (Rainier, Tetons) originally provided the guides as part of their 'service'. After that period there is a long history of the guide service (usually exactly one) and the Park working closely together. The mission of the National Parks is to preserve and protect the park, and to foster recreation and enjoyment of the Parks. Early in its history, the NPS placed considerable emphasis on the latter, and moved aggressively to bring people to the parks and provide services for visitors when they got there, in many cases including guided hiking and climbing opportunities.

You will no doubt be disappointed that Zion National Park no longer provides ranger-guided horse-rides into the Narrows or up to Cabin Springs for lunch, on the West Rim, as they did into the late 50's or early 60's.

As part of the political process, guide services have been instrumental in assuring that rich people (the guided class) provide political support for the National Parks, and specifically for the guide service concessionaires in National Parks.

If anything, Zion National Park is an anomaly in not allowing concessionaire guiding in the backcountry.

"Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea."

I am happy to have you express your opinion, especially if you would clarify:

What is "the whole idea"?

And how does guiding conflict with this?

(I personally do not think guiding in Zion National Park is a good idea. I think it could be a good idea if administered well, but I think the chances of it being administered well are low.)

Tom

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Originally Posted by mdd

Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then. From the Zion BMP, appendix E (bolding is mine):

Should commercial guiding be allowed in the Primitive Zone?
172 comments received on this topic

• 37 percent (from form letter) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
• 45 percent (not form letters) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
• 15 percent stated that commercial guiding should be allowed
• 3 percent had no clear stand on commercial guiding
• The most frequent reason given by those opposed to guiding was concern that commercial operations would take all available permits. Many of those who indicated a support for commercial guiding indicated that a system should be put in place that eliminates competition between private and commercial groups for permits.
• The second most common reason given by those opposed to guiding was a belief that commercial operations do not have a place in Zion’s backcountry, and that there are other areas outside of Zion available for the activity.
• Those in favor of guiding commented on the ability of guides to promote safe canyoneering and resource conservation.

--

Further in Appendix E, ZNP gives its rationale for banning guides:

A permit system is currently in place to keep use levels at, or near, proposed social or resource standards for canyoneering trips as well as overnight trips in the Primitive Zone.... An additional group of users would put additional pressure on all areas within the Primitive Zone.

Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate.

MDD: This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.

M

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I think ZNP did a good job of manipulating the Backcountry Management Plan to cut off any meaningful discussion of guiding in the backcountry.

"Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate."

1. The Park assessed demand for guided trips by surveying non-guided backcountry users, and found no demand. Not a surprise. (As a similar example, I have surveyed my Sierra Club friends, and find little support for Mr. Romney; therefore there is little support for Mr. Romney?);
2. The Park DECLARED that existing use levels in the backcountry were "high". They presented no evidence to support this claim. It is a declaration. I don't find use level in the backcountry to be high - in all but a few highly-sought after routes, use in the backcountry of Zion is extremely low.

In the Backcountry Plan, when the 'survey' supports the Park position, the Park makes it clear that 'the users voted' that way, as if it was a matter of tallying the votes. When the Park position is contrary to how the users 'voted', then the Park ignores the votes. So, the Park is very willing to use survey results as an EXCUSE for taking a particular action, but it is naive to claim that the Park takes ANY action because it represents the opinion of the populace. The Park does what it darn well pleases, and finds and excuse, however flimsy, whereever it can.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ddavis

(from the article linked above)

Seems like this article is making it around the country. It caught my attention the first time I saw it. Looks like an attempt to use this incident to allow guiding in Zion.

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You give Mike too much credence. He inopportunely took a jab at the park management. He mouthed off. Simple as that.

Tom

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The NPS in many parks (Rainier, Tetons) originally provided the guides as part of their 'service'.

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Many still do (even on semi-technical stuff).

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Anyway, personally, I don't think the Subway should be guided. I even find the quotas of 80 per day as really reasonable. As much as most of us don't like to get a permit, on a canyon such as the Subway, there almost has to be a limit on how many people are in there at once. Some routes might not matter, but in my opinion, the Subway doesn't fit that criteria.

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"What is "the whole idea"?

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I always thought that "the whole idea" was that the National Parks would be set aside for the enjoyment and recreation of the people.

I object to guiding on NTL Park land on the same principle which I object to drilling for oil on NTL Park land... because the resources of our parks shouldn't be open for private/for-profit consumption.

My comparison between drilling for oil and commercial guiding is on principle only. I understand that when it comes to impact on the parks, there is no comparison.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

SAR doesn't typically launch for over due hikers...You need to differentiate between "commercial guiding" and friendship guiding.

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As for SAR not getting out the day of, I was thinking that if permits were more focused on safety of people in the backcountry and not quotas. they might have done something right away.
The commercial guides/friend guides I was being facetious.
But I do feel that commercial guiding in Zion isn't a bad thing, except it would open the Zion Superintendent to ridicule (and a pissing fest between locals) for not allowing certain companies and allegedly favoring others. Will commercial guiding be available soon in Zion Backcountry, doubtful.

I don't think commercial guiding should be allowed in Zion either! There are plenty of canyons outside the park that are fine for guiding. Sadly enough I do kinda like having quotas though. Not saying the permit system is perfect cause we all know it's far from it. But these canyons are far more enjoyable when you don't have to wait for three groups of people to rappel ahead of you at every rappel in pine creek for example. Think of how bad the subway or pine creek would be without a quota. However on the other end canyons like mystery need the stars and planets to align to get a permit in peak season so they could use a few more permits.

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Originally Posted by Scott P

Many still do (even on semi-technical stuff).

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Name one.

I don't know of any park that provides anything beyond ranger-led interpretative tours. Are there some that do?

Tom

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Originally Posted by mtn_dude

As for SAR not getting out the day of, I was thinking that if permits were more focused on safety of people in the backcountry and not quotas. they might have done something right away.

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Seriously?

Cameras at every rappel in every popular canyon?

Maybe button-operated airbags at the bottom of each rappel - the ranger watching the canyons can pop it out as soon as the rappeller looks like they are having problems. Of course, then, only specific rappels would be allowed... (etc.)

Emergency Call Phones in every canyon? Rangers in helicopters ready to respond?

"they might have done something right away."

Sorry to seem a little crass, but how long do you think he lasted? One hour? Two hours? Even with a helicopter and an immediate call-out, it would have been hard for a rescuer to get there in time.

It's a tragedy. It is sad. It is unfortunate.

But if people want to visit the Parks and do things in the backcountry, and have bad luck; the combination will result in people dying. This is not a bad thing, as it is not a good thing. It is a part of life.

Tom

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Originally Posted by SRG

I always thought that "the whole idea" was that the National Parks would be set aside for the enjoyment and recreation of the people.

I object to guiding on NTL Park land on the same principle which I object to drilling for oil on NTL Park land... because the resources of our parks shouldn't be open for private/for-profit consumption.

My comparison between drilling for oil and commercial guiding is on principle only. I understand that when it comes to impact on the parks, there is no comparison.

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Interesting comparison...

Let me introduce you to: Grand Canyon National Park

"because the resources of our parks shouldn't be open for private/for-profit consumption."

Consumption? How is guiding people in a Park consumption?

Tom

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Name one.

I don't know of any park that provides anything beyond ranger-led interpretative tours. Are there some that do?

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Yes. The parks and monuments that have caves as a primary attraction certainly come to mind. This is true even of the semi-technical sections of some caves. For example, the tour of Spider Cave in Carlsbad NP is more than just a "ranger-led interpretative tour". I would say that it is more or less at least equal with the Subway in difficulty.

Although independent travel is still permitted in some of the parks/monuments that have caves as a primary attraction, guiding by the NPS is common and although most tours are easy (Timp or Leman Caves for example), at least some of the tours in some parks/monuments have more in common to say a semi technical canyon than they do with the simple ranger led interpretive tours in say Zion or Bryce.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

You give Mike too much credence. He inopportunely took a jab at the park management. He mouthed off. Simple as that.

Tom

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I don't know him, so between that and whatever the reporter did to what he actually said, I could have misinterpreted his message. I also have my own opinions about guiding in Zion that gives me a bit of a bias. However, I didn't like what he said the first time I read it, and I really didn't like it the second time. It looked self-serving as hell. If, however, he was just mouthing off and taking jabs at park managment, then what he took was a cheap shot.

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Originally Posted by ddavis

I don't know him, so between that and whatever the reporter did to what he actually said, I could have misinterpreted his message. I also have my own opinions about guiding in Zion that gives me a bit of a bias. However, I didn't like what he said the first time I read it, and I really didn't like it the second time. It looked self-serving as hell. If, however, he was just mouthing off and taking jabs at park managment, then what he took was a cheap shot.

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All those things. :facepalm1:

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Originally Posted by Scott P

Yes. The parks and monuments that have caves as a primary attraction certainly come to mind. This is true even of the semi-technical sections of some caves. For example, the tour of Spider Cave in Carlsbad NP is more than just a "ranger-led interpretative tour". I would say that it is more or less at least equal with the Subway in difficulty.

Although independent travel is still permitted in some of the parks/monuments that have caves as a primary attraction, guiding by the NPS is common and some of the tours have more in common to say a semi technical canyon than they do with the simple ranger led interpretive tours in say Zion or Bryce.

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Good point.

But, seems like these (cave parks) are the exceptions in the National Park system.

When each Park looks at how to manage its resources, it looks to its mission. I suspect that the 'cave parks' lead tours there because they cannot preserve the caves and allow visitation at the same time, without closely supervising visitors. At most parks, since the Reagan administration, all things that can be out-sourced to private vendors are. Perhaps the community of Carlsbad had no one interested in running the cave tours as a concession.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Cameras at every rappel in every popular canyon?...Maybe button-operated airbags at the bottom of each rappel - the ranger watching the canyons can pop it out as soon as the rappeller looks like they are having problems. Of course, then, only specific rappels would be allowed... (etc.)...Emergency Call Phones in every canyon? Rangers in helicopters ready to respond?

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Those are a little in right field but thats an alright argument to make.

Would it hurt the park(or canyoneering pride) to allow the Ranger, who was told at the Left Fork trailhead at 9 p.m. that there was an elderly couple still down there, to be able to do something? Besides say, "I'll see them in the morning?"

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I suspect that the 'cave parks' lead tours there because they cannot preserve the caves and allow visitation at the same time, without closely supervising visitors.

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Yes. Similar to the parks (i.e. Mesa Verde, Navajo National Monument, etc.) that emphasize ruins. I guess most of those guided tours could fit in the catagory of ranger led interpretive tours though.

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Perhaps the community of Carlsbad had no one interested in running the cave tours as a concession.

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Or my guess is that the NPS doesn't trust concessioners to make sure the fragile caves are protected enough. Carlsbad was one example, but the other "wild cave" tours in other parks are run by the NPS as well (for example some of the Wind Cave and Jewel Cave tours).

It seems the NPS like to do things themselves in the ruin parks and cave parks.

I guess that's a sidetrack of the main subject though.

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Originally Posted by mtn_dude

Those are a little in right field but thats an alright argument to make.

Would it hurt the park(or canyoneering pride) to allow the Ranger, who was told at the Left Fork trailhead at 9 p.m. that there was an elderly couple still down there, to be able to do something? Besides say, "I'll see them in the morning?"

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How much do you want permits to cost?

People come out of the Subway late, a LOT. Are you suggesting anytime a car is parked at the trailhead at dusk, the park rally a team with technical rescue capability to traverse the Subway?

I realize this accident tugs at the heartstrings... I am not heartless myself. But "personal responsibility" has real meaning in the Wilderness. This is not Disneyland. If you screw up out there you could get hurt or die. Generally when people break their leg or knee in the Subway, it takes 24 hours to get them out.

Several weeks ago, an elderly gentleman picked up a Subway permit, and started the hike in from the bottom. By 5 pm he had gotten halfway to the Subway and turned around. Hikers coming out told the ranger there was a guy in trouble down there. A ranger responded with overnight gear and food, found the guy and camped with him. The next day, the ranger helped the guy toward the trailhead. Working all day, they almost got to the foot of the hill. Camped again. Next day, NPS SAR team with help from Kane County and Washington County SAR executed a technical rescue to get him up the hill.

Appropriate response? I think so.

The key here is that a rescue was requested (by hikers coming out of the Subway).

Initiating a rescue everytime a car is parked overnight... wow. That would be expensive!!!

Tom

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Originally Posted by mtn_dude

Those are a little in right field but thats an alright argument to make.

Would it hurt the park(or canyoneering pride) to allow the Ranger, who was told at the Left Fork trailhead at 9 p.m. that there was an elderly couple still down there, to be able to do something? Besides say, "I'll see them in the morning?"

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To do something? Launch a full 15pereon SAR in the night because there were some older folks that seem new to the sport or slow? Remember all the permit waiver you sign with all those checkboxes? Plural, not singular checkboxes, and not just 2 checkboxes but about 6 checkboxes. This is specifically keep the pressure on the user to make sure they are prepared. I think the tragedy is terribly sad and think its just series of unfortunate luck and timing.

You say it's a little in the right field when Tom mentioned airbags, and helicopters on standby...This is the backcountry, not the concrete jungle.

Speaking of the backcountry - I got bit by a mosquito tonight while jogging - who should I sue first, Kaysville city or the state for not warning about Mosquitos in the area. Tsk tsk.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Hikers coming out told the ranger there was a guy in trouble down there. A ranger responded with overnight gear and food, found they guy and camped with him.

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That's what I suggested about this past week.

I agree full fledged rescue missions shouldn't be sent everytime a car is left at a trailhead. But when a suggestion comes that someone might need help they could respond in like manner to the story you shared and didn't happen in last weeks situation.
This would make it clear that the permit system isn't just about limiting numbers and is there to provide a safety net for when things go wrong or people don't realize what they're in for with particular hikes.
We(a risk management class) joking suggested sending a ranger as a sweep later in the day, i'd take that job!

The thing about noticing slow folks is, that, overnight unplanned bivy's in Zion happen all the time with no consequences. Eh Tom? Eh Kip? Ha ha.

I still feel bad you camped in the woman's toilet at the TOS...

Back on track...yeah, folks can be slow. They get benighted. They're usually fine. This accident wasn't a "they were slow" thing. They had an accident. Way different. Hard to fault the park at all.

I don't want more ranger patrols in the backcountry. They take away from my "wilderness experience".

Slow is one thing. Having an accident another. Unplanned bivys...badge of honor. We all have them. I sure don't want SAR called out everytime my car is at a parking lot after dark. Damn, I'd have SAR looking for me all the time!

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Originally Posted by mtn_dude

That's what I suggested about this past week.

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The situation was different.

In the earlier case, the reporting party reported that the elderly gentleman needed rescue.

Was there any report about the elderly couple?

Tom