jman, I really miss your gum chewing avatar chick. This one is much less... hypnotic.
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jman, I really miss your gum chewing avatar chick. This one is much less... hypnotic.
X 2 :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus2000
It was hard not to stare at it for just a moment (everytime!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus2000
x3
( :haha: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Looks like everyone is unanimous - haha, I'll bring her back tomorrow morning.
Well, I guess I knew what I was getting into criticizing the ATC around this crowd! :2gun:
However, I still maintain that there are more appropriate devices out there. Devices that provide more friction on their own, without adding carabiners, and without using two devices in tandem. By adding carabiners and doubling up ATC's, you are actually agreeing with me that the ATC doesn't provide enough friction on its own for long free-hanging drops.
I understand that many of you do just fine with ATCs on single rope. Great. I'm happy for you. But please understand that it is not the best option for some people. For example, I weigh nearly 200 lbs. Once you add a pack to that, I find that even doubled 9mm climbing rope through an ATC is too fast for my liking. I end up having to use a lot of hand strength, and have experienced hand cramps like jman describes, even on drops of <50ft.
When you have a device that you trust to provide enough friction, I'm not sure you would still insist that bottom belays are mandatory for free-hanging rappels. Free-hanging rappels are done safely all the time without them. In many situations, (thinking mostly of caving here) there is no safe place for a bottom belayer to be. Hanging out below a drop while someone rappels is not always a genius idea. I'm not suggesting that you never use a bottom belay, just that they are not always possible and shouldn't always be required.
Might try one of these devices! I've used it, and really like it. I've used the stainless version, but am about ready to order the titanium version.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
http://www.conterra-inc.com/index.ph...&product_id=37
Concur on the bottom belay. I think a "proactive" top belay, versus a "reactive" bottom belay is much better. IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
Onto the devices...
Ok, like what? A rappel rack?
A rack is sweet, but, only good for one purpose. And, for most folks' money, two ATC's is much cheaper and more functional than one rack. Lighter usually too. Easier to get replacement parts for (just buy another one). Rather than hoping where ever you're buying your replacement bars from are still out there (and they haven't discontinued that size device).
For fun, I took a CMI mini firefly and dremelled the bar so I can actually take it on and off a rope. Light, compact. Works pretty sweet, but, the bars are aluminum and wear very quickly, especially in any kind of sandstone (ala So. Utar) environment. Geez, can I get new bars?
So, tell us what devices, including racks, which would be your choice for single strand, say, 8.3mm rope on a free hanging rappel. Edjumacate us!
Bo, that Scarab is cool looking! Wicked spendy, though. Ti? Yikes. 250 retail? Eeeouch! That's 10 or more ATC-XP's...
Anyhoo, fun stuff. Ok, as fun as rappelling can be I suppose (har har).
-Brian in SLC
Yeah - she is back! :five: I really disliked the other one - too gross for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Very glad to hear that you are ok. :2thumbs:
Thanks for sharing - I know that it may be difficult at times, but I have learned a couple of things because of this tread. I've also had some good personal debates with others about rigging, devices and friction. Thanks.
I hope that you only broke bones and do not have ligament damage - good luck with the surgery. Remember: toes above nose. :mrgreen:
:rockon:
jman Im glad your ok... and thank you for the post. not for learning lessons but for sparking a fire.
i wish i could quote all the post but..
http://vksempireofdirt.com/wp-conten...kelso-burn.jpg
yep there we're some good ones. :lol8:
For jman.....
"Bones heal, chicks dig scars, pain is temporary, glory is forever." - Evil Knievel
"Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and America has the best Doctor to Daredevil ratio in the world." - Captain Lance Murdoch
:popcorn:
You mean, you want something that is automatic-level easy to use, fits lots of different ropes on lots of different sizes, is inexpensive, doesn't weigh much, looks snazzy, easy and fast to rig and de-rig, chicks dig it, dhudes dig it, ... etc.? Not gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
ATC-XP is great. But, you have to buy these accessory parts, called 'carabiners', that work with it to help adapt to different ropes/weights/conditions. Funny, I already seemed to own a whole bunch of the accessory parts and, funny, I already carry them with me in the canyon. YES, there is stuff to know and figure out, and if you don't you might end up hitting the ground and breaking your ankle and STILL feeling lucky. What's your point?
No device is 'ultra-versatile' - each has their good and bad points. Personally, I use a Pirana most of the time, but an ATC a fair amount. You can get a wide range of friction on an ATC without too much fiddling. Bueno.
Tom :moses:
ps for those of you keeping score, I agreed with Brian, AGAIN. Uh oh, soon goats will be marrying hedgehogs - watchout!!!
A few years back I had the pleasure of attending a pothole escape training day with Tom Jones, which ended in a 400 foot descent of the Hidden Canyon wall. I remember attempting to determine what was best for each of the participants for the descent, of which about 260' was going to be free.
I believe in the first section we tried to use two devices but found that we could not move much at all since we were using a 600 foot rope (I don't remember what the rope size was). Too much friction so this ideas was discarded!
The second section we worked on stopping our descent and adding extra friction and boy was that work. Every try to lift a 600 foot rope that has gotten wet? On rappel?
Finally in the third section each of us chose the method we were to use and tried to perfect its usage on that rappel.
Then it was on to the rappel itself, which was awesome. Fortunately everyone made it down safely ending a mostly successful day.
Now what am I going to use for the final rap in Heaps this summer? Not sure yet but will be trying out a couple of setups next month during a descent of Ice Cube in LV.
Get well man, wish you were able to join us for 'The Cube'.
Nah, you're reading a lot of things in here. The only criteria you listed that really seem important to me would be the fits different size ropes, easy to rig, and chicks dig it. The others, not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
My point is that this is not the first time we've heard about someone cratering while using an ATC single-roped. Using facts-based analysis, this points me toward the conclusion that perhaps the ATC is not the best device for this particular application.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
However, it has become quite clear to me that in large part the American canyoneering community disagrees with this conclusion. They disagree to the extent that they would rather add several carabiners for friction than switch to a different device. Also, while these ATC extra-friction techniques are widely known, some continue to not use them. Some of these people continue to crater. To this I say: To each his own and happy rappelling!
If you are happy with your ATC, then great. If you are not, and find that you have to use hand-cramping force to slow yourself (as I do), then you may want to check out a different device. A mini-rappel rack, bobbin, or any of the specialty eights including Piranas and Totems might work better for you. These all adapt to different ropes/weights/conditions without a z-rig of carabiners. If you rig single-rope, especially on long free drops, you might be happier with something besides a tube device.
When I use an ATC, I have to work hard with my brake hand. With the other listed devices, I do not. When working hard with your brake hand for hundreds of feet, your hand might tire or cramp, and this could cause you to fall.
That is all.
That sucks you might miss the summer. Atleast you will be ready for fall season (5 months max recovery). I would also thank you for sharing. It sucks to be picked on but I have really learned some good pointers here.
I would like to contribute to the ATC argument. I am too girlish to admit my weight online but with a pack on I weigh well over 250 lbs. I have never had a problem with the atc guide. If the rap is overhanging then I will put two biners on for the rope to go around. I have attached a picture so I can try out the new bogley attach feature!
Attachment 32719
This is a great place to practice---from Wickipedia--
The Cave of Swallows, also called Cave of the Swallows (Spanish: [I][B]S
Thanks everyone!
Just a update for today:
I had surgery on Thursday at the Surgical Center in Ogden. I arrived at 7am and I was first in line. I filled out all the paper work, was told about anesthesia and got a bit nervous. They said they would intubate me as well. They stuck a IV in me for fluids as well as a antibiotic. Then the Nurse pulled up my left ankle and put it on a soft cloth and used a razor to shave up to my shins. Then I just sat around for an hour.
Finally, they wheel me into the back room of the surgery rooms around 9am. The room was very spacious, had lots of tvs, and the radio semi-loud blasting Ozzy Osbourn Crazy Train! I was psyched and ready to get this surgery over. My pain level at this time was about 1/10 - very, very, very manageable.
They next injected Propofol (what Michael Jackson OD'ed and died on) and I was out with in 5 minutes. The actual surgery consisted of a few procedures. First, they would have two holes on the front of the ankle for the scope. Then they would make an incision on the lateral side of the ankle. Next, because of the location of the fractures, they would need to cut the Fibula and push it to the side. From there they would rewire the broken bone fragments into my talus and sew me back up and put on a brace and screw it into my fibula to stabilize it.
The next thing I remember is waking up and screaming in PAIN!! The actually surgery took about 2 1/2 hours and I looked down at my leg and it had a splint and I was wearing a pain pump (a local anesthetic that numbs all of the nerve endings but doesn't work too well - it just removes the edge of the pain). My ankle was in so much pain! I have never ever ever felt that kind of pain before. The surgery and recovery hurt 10x more than the actually fall did!
Because of the anesthesia I was a little bit nauseous and light-headed. After about 10mins of groaning to myself because of the pain, finally a nurse came back and gave me a cocktail of two percosets, a morphine drip, and 1 or 2 ibuprofens for the swelling. I was maxed out on pain meds and my perception of pain was a 9/10!!!!
It hurt sooo bad. The pain just increased more and more and soon it became so unbearable that the only thing my body could do to cope with the pain was hyperventilate. I was trying to calm myself but the pain was so unbearable, after hyperventilating for over a minute, I then just wept like a hurt baby for over 10minutes. I was balling and crying so loud. I could NOT DEAL with the pain...it hurt so bad. (And I'm person who never cries. I once fell off a 2-story house when I was 14yrs-old and fell head first and didn't cry when I landed as I landed on my back and arms...but that's a story within itself).
My wailing and crying was so bad, that a nurse came in and told me "get a hold of myself" and that I was "scaring the other patients" and "just deal with the pain". I was in shock! I couldn't believe she said those things. It's like telling a mother who is birthing to be quiet cause she's to loud. Or telling a soldier who just got shot 4 times in the body to "deal with the pain" and "be quiet". Man...the audacity of some people...I swear.
I was in too much pain to say anything to her, so I just let it go. After I stopped crying, I said a prayer asking for a little pain relief. And within a instant my leg pain was much more tolerable. After another 1hr of observation and doing final tests, all the while I'm massaging my leg and asking the Doctor more questions about the surgery - they finally released me!
My dad brought his truck and loaded me into it and it was very uncomfortable since I couldn't lay down. After 30 minutes of driving we hit my Mom's house and everyone helped me into the house and laid me down on my bed.
And that's where I have been ever since...
Thankfully with the percoset and pain pump, my pain perception has been about a 5/10 rising up to a 7/10 in the mornings. And I've been super spoiled with friends coming over for long periods of time, and family being around playing board games and videogames and watching movies, etc. Everyone has been so accomodating and super helpful. I'm very humble to have all of their help, and to realize that I'm fortunate to be in "this" pain as it could of been so much worse...I can't even imagine.
I have an appt this week for a followup and to remove the pain pump (they leave it for a short amount of time, due to worry about infection). I asked my Doctor how long the recovery process would last - and he said that I should be walking on within 2-3 months! And 3 weeks later after the accident - my right foot and ankle are nearly 100% healed. I can walk on it without pain, there is no more bruising and swelling, and I can put my full weight on it without complaint. Go body!
And Thanks to everyone here for their kind wishes and sympathy! and hopefully by me sharing this experience - you can learn from my mistakes.
Great to hear that the surgery went well. :clap: How is the swelling?
Take the time to recover properly. You have the rest of your life to walk, if you do not take the time now, you will walk incorrectly for the rest of your life. :nod:
Remember - toes above nose. :cripple:
Best wishes to you jman for a full recuperation. F-ing doctors and nurses and their "just deal with it" attitudes really get me riled. I understand wanting to keep people in chronic pain from being dependent. But you have a very temporary condition that could absolutely be made to be 100% comfortable. WTF! Maybe I'm missing some important reason to deny you something stronger like Morphine but I don't get it.
Iceman's post #8, Patrick Depallier death at Hockenheim brought back memories for me. I used drive from my workplace at heidelberg airfield over to the exact same location for my lunch. many times there would be Formula 1 teams practicing there in cars with no paint on them so it was difficult to know who was driving. I also saw the horrific crash at Monza in 1978, when Richie Peterson survived the crash at the first turn at the start of the race only to die of a blood clot in his leg while recovering in the hospital. Ayrton Senna dying in a crash that seemed so benign and the great Gilles Villeneuve in a crash that no one saw. Many great moments in the sport but at the speeds they attained it was only inevitable that someone would die almost yearly.
Jaman... this might be the type of devise your mom was talking about. To rappel on the ClipUp it looks like you would have a deadman's throttle (let go of the throttle and it locks up).
ClipUp
http://gearjunkie.com/click-up-belay-device
Attachment 32975
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha3918grz1s
Hehe, such debate over the perfect device!
I've gone back and forth on the "perfect" belay device for canyoneering. I don't think there is one. Personally, I like either an 8 (to keep wear off my biners) or a steel atc-xp (see dmm's V-twin device... weighs only about 1oz more than an aluminum BD atc-xp) with a steel biner.
Honestly though, if you are tackling a nasty, big, long, wet, free-hanging rappel with a lot of weight on a thin, single strand rope, you really shouldn't exclude the MUNTER HITCH. It's amazing how much control this gives you. Does it twist the rope? Moreso if you don't hold the strands in parrallel vs holding the break end diagonal or 90 degrees off to the side, but a good technique that works well.
ststephen, I couldn't believe the one nurse was like that. It upset me even more as the days past...Thankfully, the Surgical Tech Center called me to do a survey of my visit, and told them explicitly about that nurse. It was not humane to be treated like that. With that said though, By far, the best Nursing I had was in Moab at the Allen Memorial Hospital. Although, my Dr at McKay Dee Hospital has been very accommodating and optimistic, with a good dose of reality. And he has a great sense of humor like me. haha
Shane, no, that's not the device my step-mom was talking about. Brian in SLC, actually guessed it, in a few pages back if you want to see what it was.
Since this thread keeps being posted on, I thought I would give everyone a update and post some awesome pics!
It's been nearly 2 weeks since surgery, and I'm in a hard cast now, and thankfully it's short. I'm using crutches and everyone around me has been very accommodating!
On the 21st, I will go back to have the sutures (stitches) removed, and then have another hard-cast for 3months. I'm REALLY fortunate.
Old thread being dug up here, but I'm a fairly noob learning from the posts. I know Tom recommends against an autoblock in general, but it is precisely for this type of scenario that I always use an autoblock (except for rappels through or into water). I never know if my hand will spasm, if a rock will bounce down and hit me, or if something else will happen. It just seems prudent to use one as a matter of course.
What am I missing?
I had my friend down below taking pics, and a belay would of stopped me. But rigging for more friction would of prevented it. However.........I did not ever think to anticipate my break hand would spasm out and lock up, as I ever never had that ever ever ever happen on my life. Ive been canyoneering since 2002, and hve done lots of canyon, including bigger free rappels (Heaps)Quote:
Originally Posted by dsr70
It was the weirdest sensation I tell ya.
I recommend against using an autobloc as part of your standard rappelling setup, after you pass the beginner stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsr70
1. Autoblocs work only reasonably well, even when using always the same rope and autobloc. Half the time, they are pain in the patootie to manage to slide down the rope. They require a fair amount of effort.
2. Like gloves, autoblocs can be used to mask not setting up your friction correctly.
3. Getting used to having an autobloc can lead to bad habits. People that use an autobloc regularly can get used to just letting go of the rappel without consequences, until they happen to not have an autobloc on at that moment.
4. I have seen many people use an "autobloc" that absolutely would not have done anything, not even slowed em down. Or they use a prusik above the device, which has many, many problems, and basically does not work. Many people who use "autoblocs" do not know how to use them effectively, thus they give a false sense of security.
5. If you are going to use an autobloc, please learn how to use it effectively, AND save it for special occasions. After the fact, Jman's crash looks like one of those special occasions.
I have somewhat the same speil on bottom belays, but... use it much more often, and the bottom belay has saved my bacon on a couple of occasions, including that last rap in Heaps (thanks Chris, and thanks radios).
Tom :moses:
In medicine, we call discussions like this post-mortems. This is perhaps not the most delicate expression considering the favorable outcome of this story.
When I spent two days with Jim Clery and Excursions of Escalante, one of the things I was encourage to forget was the autoblock. For sure this is a fussy set-up, and no substitute for the correct friction on the rappel device. It does risk getting sucked into the rappel device unless the rappel device is extended with makes things even more fiddly. Still, with the correct friction dialed in, I was sure happy with the autoblock on the last rap on Behunin.
So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use? Not saying I am going to use that there next week (I promise Tom). Just figure this is pretty much the maximum stress test for a rappel set up that we have for canyoneering. I am curious what folks use when they feel they need belt and suspenders.
Ken
BMS micro-rack. Plenty of friction every time. No extra carabiners or autoblocs necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinesnaper
Yet it is interesting that the BMS site describe these products for 11 and 10 mm rope. Can these devices be used safely for 8 mm single line? At one pound for the rack, do you use this for all of your rappelling, or do you pull it out just for the big drops?Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
I was not aware that BMS only describes use for 10 and 11mm rope. Thanks for pointing this out. I would imagine that they say this because that is what most American cavers use. Their primary markets are cavers and firemen, two groups not usually known for using skinny rope. It would be interesting to find out if they have some reason for not going below 10mm or if it just did not occur to them to state that it is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinesnaper
Having said that, I can tell you from personal experience that we use these racks on 9 and 8mm rope all the time. The biggest drop I have done on single-line 8mm is the entrance drop to Englestead ~300ft. I believe this is similar to the drop length in Heaps, which is why I chimed in on this thread. I felt that the micro-rack offered enough control on the big drop, even on skinny rope. It did get quite hot, but then again so did our buddy's Pirana. He actually ended up with a Pirana-shaped brand on his arm!
My wife and I, plus our small group of cavers that we go canyoneering with all use the micro-rack for all our rappels. I realize that in the canyoneering world the micro-rack is considered a large, heavy descender, but we don't really see it that way. It may be larger and heavier than a figure eight or ATC, but is much more versatile and lasts much longer. The bars on the micro are stainless steel and last for years. With the amount of rappelling that I do, I would be replacing a Pirana (or other aluminum device) every year.
I currently rap with a Pirana, which I am wearing out. I have been considering switching over to an ATC but I wonder if this is adequate for skinny, single line situations. I know that it is used by some precisely in this type of situation. People who use the micro-rack seem pretty happy with them. This question might make an interesting separate thread. Will see if others address this issue.
Ken
I've used two ATC's. Smooth. I'll also have a biner on each leg and one for above the ATC if I feel like I need additional friction.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinesnaper
First time I did Heaps I just used a single ATC with no fancy rigging. We had a fairly thick 300 foot BW Static II line, though. Not enough friction, but, I wrapped it around me and used both hands. Additional friction off my wetsuit was good enough.
I've used a munter on a leg carabiner for additional friction off a long rappel (Englestead) but I prefer the smooth and no kink double ATC rig.
Have also used a mini CMI Firefly slightly custom modified rappel rack. Sweet.
You're in luck...there has been some discussion on this a few years back: Last Sequence in Heaps, which device?Quote:
Originally Posted by spinesnaper
:hail2thechief:Ya gotta just love this group.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Sounds like the Petzl's PET-B71 ASAP Mobile Fall Arrester. This device works on the same concept as a seatbelt in your car if you pull slowly it lets out pull fast and the seatbelt locks. I have one it is very simple to use and as long as you use one of the many diameter ropes it is desined for (I use 7/16" static) and rig it right you cant mess it up just set it and forget it. It can be used in rappelling or climbing. It has a very slight drag as you rappel just enough to keep the device trailing above you. If useing it as a self belay for climbing it has no drag and freely trails you up the rope. If you go to fast or fall and it locks you have to use a prusik knot step or other methed to get your weight off of it and turn the wheel backwards this unlocks it. When it locks with full weight on it it causes little to no damage to rope. I dont always use it as somethimes I like to rappel faster than it will alow (speed set not adjustable) but if I dont use it I always use a prusik knot as a self belay either above my rescue 8 or just below my brake hand cliped into the leg strap (newer way). This piece of gear is completly mechanical. price is around $200 differs a few bucks on diffrent web sites. Stay safe and have fun.
The "clipup" is not sold as a fall arrester and if you are unconscious the device will not lock and does not sence speed. Still a cool peice of gear though.
Thanks for the post John Army, and welcome to the Bog...Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnarmy12B
Here's a link, with the Petzl video at the bottom: http://www.techtoolsupply.com/Produc...ctCode=PET-B71
any one see any problems with this anchor rig other than it posibly geting caught up at the top. this is a retrivable system doesnt leave anything at the top. wanted to try this but with 2 anchor points.
Top red rope is around the anchor
pink rope is rappel line
white line is for retrival
That is essentially the same as: http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress...tree/index.phpQuote:
Originally Posted by Johnarmy12B
Except by putting your retrieval line inside one of the rapid links, you run the rappel rope across the retrieval rope, which is not a good idea, and un-necessary.
It works when you have a nice, clean pull-around, but leaves quite a bit to get stuck on something.
This is a "3X" solution, as it requires 3 times the length of the rappel in ropes and cords.
Tom
yea I see what your saying thanks Tom.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia