Contingency Anchors!

Appreciate those with experience willing to revisit these topics.
I may think SRT is the only way to get thru IMLAY but some will fly thru there all double strand, without even a rope bag, and leave my team in the dirt!
More than anything like to now HOW they do it!
Easy to assume there is only one good way.

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Originally Posted by flatiron

I can't open any of Shane's links? Is it me? (probably)

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I don't know why those links are no longer active. Below are new links to a couple of the stories. I also noticed someone had removed the original "I fell 106 Feet" post. I have replaced it with a different version along with an edit note.

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33314

Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?26059

Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35747

I'll have to Bogley tech's look into why the old links no longer work.

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Originally Posted by hank moon

Shane, you know I love you, but this is the ugliest forum post I've ever seen in the canyon community.

Beyond the pale.

hank

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So exactly how many people have to die because of the promotion of overly complicated and silly-ass rope tricks before my post would be considered acceptable? Just give me a number, because if this shit continues more will die or be seriously injured.

I understand all these techniques have a use and a place, but 99% of your recreational canyoneers will never have a need or use for any of them. But the rec canyoneers see the big dogs and a Zion guide promoting them and think that must be the correct way, and we already know how well that works out in the end.

If you wish to champion overly complicated and silly-ass rope tricks that's cool, but shoulder some responsibility for the final results.

:soapbox:

You should know both before entering a canyon unsupervised.
If it isn't necessary to use a contingency anchor rap double, but if you can't see if your rope is touching and you go down on double you're a moron and shouldn't be in a canyon in the first place.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Why would you EVER put yourself in this situation? Oh right, you were canyoneering with Shane and Slot Machine. You already frakked up.

Tom :moses:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

THIS forum is populated by canyoneers who have disdain for technical knowledge, and for whom nothing will ever go wrong in a canyon. I am the president of the "A**hole canyoneers" who think that knowing what you are doing in the canyons is a good idea, especially before you take out noobs and place them under your care. I consider canyoneering to be a CRAFT, and part of the point is to develop you own personal craft and improve your method. Analogy: The first bookcase I made is a mess, but the 100th bookcase I make is a thing of beauty. The difference being that when I screw up the dados on my third bookcase (first one with dados), I am not putting anyone's life at risk. My fingers perhaps, but...

You have identified yourself here as TECHNICALLY-CURIOUS. You have also made clear that your technical skills are at the beginner level, known on Bogley as being an expert. I encourage you to socialize and party with the troglodytes here on Bogley, but not take technical advice from them. Start working on your craft, perhaps by canyoneering with people who know what they are doing; perhaps by paying for some training. I also suggest that your skill level is not appropriate for taking people through technical canyons, except the easiest of such, such as the Subway and Orderville.

SORRY to be the party pooper in this love-fest of the anti-technical 'canyoneers'... NOT!

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QFT

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Originally Posted by Nordschleife

If it isn't necessary to use a contingency anchor rap double, but if you can't see if your rope is touching and you go down on double you're a moron and shouldn't be in a canyon in the first place.

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You calling me a moron? I usually match ends or place the middle mark at the anchor, toss the rope ends down, and, rarely see both ends on the ground before I start rappelling.

Now, I pay attention to both ends as I rappel. Chances are, they're on a ledge or hung up midway. So, I stop and pick them up and re-toss. And, if for any reason, they aren't equal, I can equalize them, or, at least stop on rappel if need be.

There are GOBS of rappels where you can't see the bottom over a pourover, or, after a long ramp, etc. So, its not really practical to expect to always see the rope ends on the ground at the bottom of the rappel.

I don't think that makes me a moron. Or anyone else either.

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

I would like to hear more about the first three rescues. (not being snarky at all)

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All but one have to deal with teaching noobs how to rappel. Not in a slot canyon. Had a few get their hair stuck, and one got their glove stuck.

One rescue was when a buddy went down the large rappel (DRT) in Upper Imlay, and bypassed a two rappel stations. he had the rope and skills to self rescue, but we opted as a group to convert to a lower and get him down that way.

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Originally Posted by Kuya

Not in a slot canyon.

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Awww man, you know those don't count!

Attachment 77702




The last example is interesting. I did not know that blind folk did Imaly! Crazy!

...and a good example of a contingency paying off, I'll give credit where credit is due. :2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Why would you EVER put yourself in this situation? Oh right, you were canyoneering with Shane and Slot Machine. You already frakked up.

Tom :moses:

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Yo Tom, why don't you explain to everyone how you recently busted your ass and broke some bones because of a silly rope trick?

Serious Injuries from silly rope tricks:
Tom: 1
Shane: 0

Rope tricks don't kill people, people kill people. Seriously. It's not the rope's fault, it's the person hanging from it.

Any way you cut it, rappelling through canyons is a rope trick, and a dangerous one. I rig 90% of my rappels in a straightforward and familiar manner, but having the experience, thoughtfulness and adaptability to recognize and safely complete the other 10% of rappels is the hard part... and it certainly isn't simple.

Here are some basic safety practices that Desi and I use to offset the hazards inherent in all rappelling systems:
1) At the beginning of each rappel connect to the anchor near the rapide with a DAISY that has enough reach.
Connect your rappel device to the rope close to the rapide and FULLY WEIGHT IT.
Double check the device, feed a few inches of rope, have your partner (if present) double check also.
Remove your daisy and rappel.
If everyone weighted their device before unclipping this would prevent a lot of accidents. not always possible depending on the anchor set-up, but certainly easy with most Zion moderates.
2). If using SRT, with or without a contingency, always safety the pull-end with a figure 8 knot clipped back to the anchor. Lapar removes it AFTER riggng their rappel and weighting their device FIRST (to check the block).
3) If you are new to SRT have Lapar toss the pull line before starting.
On the ground, take BOTH the rap line and the pull line with just a little slack and anchor them to your harness, and firemans belay.
If there is a block failure, this could save Lapar's life.
I think following these basic procedures (when practical) would have prevented many accidents, regardless of technique.

Driving a car is dangerous... but there is a reason most of us don't drive drunk, at night, in a snowstorm, while talking on a cell phone... it's always nice to stack the odds in your favor.

Iceaxe-
I think we are in complete agreement that in canyoneering (and rock climbing, mountaineering, etc)
COMPLEXITY can be a killer.
So "keeping it simple" is a fundamental principle that keeps you alive for beginners and experts alike especially when one is
cold, tired, hungry, sleep-deprived, freaked out, etc.
So I think the principle (KISS) is universal- the debate for me is about what are the best practices to keep it simple.
You make a good argument for sticking with DRT in easy to moderate canyons, and for beginners.
As a noob canyoneer, but very experienced climber (40 plus years including 7 as a guide and volunteer rescue) I have REALLY enjoyed learning to canyoneer with Desiree. Some of the best times of our lives so far!
But I have noticed that "basic" canyon skills are not enough preparation for full Imlay, Heaps, etc due to "big wall" style station to station raps, potential pothole escapes, rigging guided rappels, raps and lowers, etc. and THE ABILITY TO DO THESE IN YOUR SLEEP.
Way to many inexperienced people go gunning for the advanced canyons with a very low skill set.

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Originally Posted by harness man

But I have noticed that "basic" canyon skills are not enough preparation for full Imlay, Heaps, etc due to "big wall" style station to station raps, potential pothole escapes, rigging guided rappels, raps and lowers, etc. and THE ABILITY TO DO THESE IN YOUR SLEEP.
Way to many inexperienced people go gunning for the advanced canyons with a very low skill set.

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Heaps was my second technical canyon (after the Left Fork of North Creek in '86 or so). But...we were both fairly experienced climbers with wall experience, etc. We didn't find it that difficult. We blocked that last rappel because it made sense given the ropes we were carrying (300' plus two 50m ropes). Every thing else we DRT'd.

Brian
Climbers with wall experience = VERY experienced climbers I think :2thumbs:.
And very helpful on the Heaps exit, unless one WANTS to have their brain melt.