Deer Creek Now Closed to Canyoneering

With regards to Zion I make every attempt to secure a permit and do things the correct way. But I refuse to wait in line during the best hiking times just to get a permit for a canyon (that usually in my case) is a non-trade route canyon. For example I've never secured a permit for Kolob. I know that even well traveled canyons can be poached relatively easy (yes, even Pine, Subway, Spry & Echo). It's a risk and probably if caught detrimental to the community as a whole but I feel I need to stand up to stupid bureaucracy. I've sent in comments every time Tom as posted something but feel that decisions are being made that are just stupid.

This is why I'm concerned about Deer Creek. Same kind of thing. Knee jerk reactions and typical govt blundering. But IMO if they are going to ban it then they then have the burden to police it. Once they start to realize that canyoneers will poach it on a regular basis then they will have to station someone there permanently, which costs $ to police it. Then it hits in the pocketbook.

Sorry, didn't mean to pass any judgement on poaching in this conversation. I just used it a segue for poaching as a form of political action or ethical action. Its a new idea to me.

I left wondering if it would have any effect?

I do think the park service blundered on the enforcement element. It will be hard to manage this closure. That said, most rafters I know have followed the previously closures well (furnace flats, salt mines, etc). Mandates without teeth though tend to only create more problems for the park.

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Originally Posted by restrac2000

Sorry, didn't mean to pass any judgement on poaching in this conversation. I just used it a segue for poaching as a form of political action or ethical action. Its a new idea to me.

I left wondering if it would have any effect?

I do think the park service blundered on the enforcement element. It will be hard to manage this closure. That said, most rafters I know have followed the previously closures well (furnace flats, salt mines, etc). Mandates without teeth though tend to only create more problems for the park.

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To further the thread, does anyone know what the penalty is for poaching and how they can enforce the closure? thanks

The closure is nearly impossible to enforce. But if you get caught the maximum penalty for the offense is six months in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Last guy I knew that got pinched recieved a small fine and was banned from GCNP for 3 years.

:cool2:

Poaching lower Deer Creek would be tough to do without getting caught. It is the most popular area of GCNP outside of the corridor trails. The campsites are always booked months in advance, which means rangers are almost always around. It is also a very popular place with the rafters, I would bet you would almost always have an audience when doing the final rap.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

The closure is nearly impossible to enforce. But if you get caught the maximum penalty for the offense is six months in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Last guy I knew that got pinched recieved a small fine and was banned from GCNP for 3 years.

:cool2:

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Felony or Misdemeanor? - it makes a huge difference to your life if you are a Felon.

Misdemeanor

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

When is Tom going to start selling elfish ropes that make you invisible on rappel? :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by BruteForce

I am somewhat saddened to see the boaters and climbers now suffering the same pain as those of us in the offroading community. Are you actually surprised by this?

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I thought they were the elite, the least amount of impact, two feet. But, with two feet comes two hands and the failure to bring out what you bring in. Funny to see the anger and how dare they tread on my use of land activities. You're right Brute, they have found out they are subjected to the same closures the off-roading communities have been dealing with for quite sometime. Watch the blame game begin, still the "not my group" doing such atrocities. Same ones that loved to see the off-roading communities share of the land dwindle. Welcome to the slippery slope. I don't feel the sadness Brute might be having, this is something you should have seen coming. Respect each others uses of land, whether you agree with it or not. Stand up for all recreation on public lands. We obviously all must self police the use of the land. I cannot tell you how many times on the way out, we were bringing more stuff out with us than when we entered. Did we sit there and judge the crap? Nope. Whether is was brought in by two feet, two wheels or four, we picked it up and hauled it out. You do feel much better in doing it.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

just because someone finds a rock holy or a bush

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That's the easy way out and the easiest way to get sections banned, especially some kind of endangered species.

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Originally Posted by mzamp

When is Tom going to start selling elfish ropes that make you invisible on rappel? :mrgreen:

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an oldie but a goodie ... from kris nosack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=kojHk56HNcI