Busy SAR week Pine Creek area rescue 4/30

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Originally Posted by nonot

Maybe it affects others more, to each their own. I've observed I do lightly grab the rope above the rap device at times, it sure doesn't seem to require the effort the others are describing.

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Abs of steel?

:moses:

Hope the park releases more info. about the situation one of these days?! I'm sure all of the points made have great merit so far, but a whole set of rules might apply upon further assessment? Had a pretty good talk with one of those involved on the specific incident, and seems that other factors may have come into play?

Curiouser and curiouser...

:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Hope the park releases more info. about the situation one of these days?! I'm sure all of the points made have great merit so far, but a whole set of rules might apply upon further assessment? Had a pretty good talk with one of those involved on the specific incident, and seems that other factors may have come into play?

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Dish the dirt!

Hopin' there's some way you can give us a bit of insight and nourishment here.

Even a general sense would be...interesting.

Cheers, Bo!

-Brian in SLC

As something of a noob, I have a question about lowering systems. Assuming I was in this situation, and had rigged a 'biner block without a contingency anchor, I think my initial thought would be to rig a second sling anchor from the bolts, pass the pull cord through it with a munter hitch, take up the tension in it, and then cut the original webbing anchor, thus releasing the biner block and allowing me to lower the stranded canyoneer to the bottom using the second anchor I built.

Is this a sensible or a completely crazy thing to do? I imagine it would be difficult to avoid shock-loading the new anchor when the original one is cut, which would worry me. Is there a better way to get someone down if they're rapping single strand and a contingency anchor hasn't been rigged? I'm assuming releasing the 'biner block with the weight of a person on it is going to be nearly impossible, and even then there's no way the EDK would pass through the rapide anyway, right?

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Hope the park releases more info. about the situation one of these days?! I'm sure all of the points made have great merit so far, but a whole set of rules might apply upon further assessment? Had a pretty good talk with one of those involved on the specific incident, and seems that other factors may have come into play?

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Thanks Bo, hope we can get more information at some point.
I really don't think these mental exercises are a bad thing though, they get us all thinking and that is good in a sport that any one of us is susceptible to a brain fart that can have dire consequences.

Sarah
I think you've asked some great questions, some of the answers may be more complex, maybe best not learned over the internets. I will say, your idea has potential, but, please don't do it with cord. Most accessory cord I'm familiar with is rated in the 1500-1700lb range. A hard bounce from your upside down partner may test this cord to the limit, especially taking into account a loss of around 30% +/- of strength with a knot. I would suggest replacing your pull cords with an 8mm line, the weight savings may cost someone dearly, 8mm rope gives you a lot more potential over 6mm cord.

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

As something of a noob, I have a question about lowering systems. Assuming I was in this situation, and had rigged a 'biner block without a contingency anchor, I think my initial thought would be to rig a second sling anchor from the bolts, pass the pull cord through it with a munter hitch, take up the tension in it, and then cut the original webbing anchor, thus releasing the biner block and allowing me to lower the stranded canyoneer to the bottom using the second anchor I built.
Is this a sensible or a completely crazy thing to do??

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I think anytime you have a sharp knife near any loaded cord/rope/sling, you run the risk of something very bad happening.

Also, what if the webbing on the anchor isn't webbing, but is chain? You're not going to be able to cut it.

Doesn't Tom have a nifty method for unweighting the block?

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Sarah
I think you've asked some great questions, some of the answers may be more complex, maybe best not learned over the internets. I will say, your idea has potential, but, please don't do it with cord.

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Were I to ever contemplate doing something like this, I'd be sure to use a second rope. Indeed, it strikes me that this might best be done with climbing rope, as it's rather better at absorbing a shock load than static.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Also, what if the webbing on the anchor isn't webbing, but is chain? You're not going to be able to cut it.

Doesn't Tom have a nifty method for unweighting the block?

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Yes, it the event that it's not webbing, this fails at the first hurdle. Pretty sure this rap has a webbing anchor, though?

Would be very interested in hearing about how to unweight the block, not necessarily in a "teaching someone to do incredibly dangerous things over the Internet" way, but more to satisfy my inner rope geek. I might be tempted to try it in a controlled environment with, say, a loaded backpack hanging on the rope rather than someone whom I might subsequently have to take to hospital and be asked embarrassing questions about.

sarah your question has been talked about in some of these threads

How to pass a knot when belaying from the top??
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...l=1#post372984

Stuck on Rappel needing rescue.
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...l=1#post387331

related to topic Scenario - Flipped Upside Down
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...l=1#post371101

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Yes, it the event that it's not webbing, this fails at the first hurdle. Pretty sure this rap has a webbing anchor, though?

Would be very interested in hearing about how to unweight the block, not necessarily in a "teaching someone to do incredibly dangerous things over the Internet" way, but more to satisfy my inner rope geek. I might be tempted to try it in a controlled environment with, say, a loaded backpack hanging on the rope rather than someone whom I might subsequently have to take to hospital and be asked embarrassing questions about.

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Sarah, go buy the book Self Rescue. It will keep you entertained for weeks.
Mark

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Self-Rescue-.../dp/0934641978
Note the UK URL- dang, I'm helpful...

Great, great book.

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Yes, it the event that it's not webbing, this fails at the first hurdle. Pretty sure this rap has a webbing anchor, though?

Would be very interested in hearing about how to unweight the block, not necessarily in a "teaching someone to do incredibly dangerous things over the Internet" way, but more to satisfy my inner rope geek. I might be tempted to try it in a controlled environment with, say, a loaded backpack hanging on the rope rather than someone whom I might subsequently have to take to hospital and be asked embarrassing questions about.

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Quickly, here is the outline for converting a biner block to a munter hitch lower:

1. grab the loaded strand of the rope about 12" below the biner block. (You guys still use inches?) A tibloc works well here as a rope grab.
2. run a sling (preferably a double-length spectra sling) THROUGH a clear biner (a biner with nothing else in it) that is high on the anchor. Bring the sling back down to your waist and clip it to your harness. This forms a counter-balance.
3. think heavy thoughts. It helps if the person you are "converting" weighs less than you, or if they are not free-hanging and can get some of their weight off the rope. It may also be possible to use bystanders to help. Pull the person up 2", enough to release tension on the block.
4. take the biner block off the rope.
5. clip the biner into the anchor, and toss a munter hitch onto it. Pull the munter hitch tight. Mule the munter hitch off, or otherwise secure it.
6. think light thoughts. Lower the person until the weight is on the munter hitch.
7. remove the tibloc and sling.
8. lower person to the ground using the munter hitch.

There are a FEW complications that must be addressed with all this. We can cover this when you are out here.

With practice, this takes about 45 seconds to execute.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Quickly, here is the outline for converting a biner block to a munter hitch lower:

1. grab the loaded strand of the rope about 12" below the biner block. (You guys still use inches?) A tibloc works well here as a rope grab.
2. run a sling (preferably a double-length spectra sling) THROUGH a clear biner (a biner with nothing else in it) that is high on the anchor. Bring the sling back down to your waist and clip it to your harness. This forms a counter-balance.

3. think heavy thoughts. It helps if the person you are "converting" weighs less than you, or if they are not free-hanging and can get some of their weight off the rope. It may also be possible to use bystanders to help. Pull the person up 2", enough to release tension on the block.
4. take the biner block off the rope.
5. clip the biner into the anchor, and toss a munter hitch onto it. Pull the munter hitch tight. Mule the munter hitch off, or otherwise secure it.
6. think light thoughts. Lower the person until the weight is on the munter hitch.
7. remove the tibloc and sling.
8. lower person to the ground using the munter hitch.

There are a FEW complications that must be addressed with all this. We can cover this when you are out here.


With practice, this takes about 45 seconds to execute.

Tom :moses:

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If you are alone, and the counterbalance doesn't work to unload the biner-bloc another option would be to add a carbiner to the carabiner in the tibloc and pass the sling through that carabiner instead of clipping it to your harness. This results in an upward pull, but a 3:1 MA (minus the inefficiencies of friction). The only thing I would suggest prior to beginning this un-weighting process is to insure that your progression passes the "whistle test". If for some reason you were to lose grip on the MA and were to lose control after the bloc were removed would your passenger hit the ground? Pre-rig your munter/mule hitch with a separate carabiner next to the bloc biner. Point to remember is that the disadvantage with a 3:1 MA is that you'll have to release 3' of sling for 1' of lower onto the munter, so I would suggest using your cordelette for this process instead of a sling. Just as a thought.

With Toms process your body closes the system and dis-allows failure, just that if you're a 120 Lb. person trying to raise a 150 Lb. person on a 1:1 (really not a 1:1 because a carabiner is about 60% efficient when it comes to friction) you might have some problems?

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

If you are alone, and the counterbalance doesn't work to unload the biner-bloc another option would be to add a carbiner to the carabiner in the tibloc and pass the sling through that carabiner instead of clipping it to your harness. This results in an upward pull, but a 3:1 MA (minus the inefficiencies of friction). The only thing I would suggest prior to beginning this un-weighting process is to insure that your progression passes the "whistle test". If for some reason you were to lose grip on the MA and were to lose control after the bloc were removed would your passenger hit the ground? Pre-rig your munter/mule hitch with a separate carabiner next to the bloc biner. Point to remember is that the disadvantage with a 3:1 MA is that you'll have to release 3' of sling for 1' of lower onto the munter, so I would suggest using your cordelette for this process instead of a sling. Just as a thought.

With Toms process your body closes the system and dis-allows failure, just that if you're a 120 Lb. person trying to raise a 150 Lb. person on a 1:1 (really not a 1:1 because a carabiner is about 60% efficient when it comes to friction) you might have some problems?

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Which is where the actual training comes in, very useful. I would go for a Mariner's knot kind of thing, which produces some mechanical advantage for those without gravitational advantage, but with a few caveats: A. always apply the weight downward; and B. always apply the weight by being clipped in to your strong point.

The "Whistle Test" is used in SAR, and the idea is if the commander blows the whistle, everyone drops everything (lets go of everything), and NOTHING HAPPENS. In a 'hasty rescue' environment, this is sometimes/often violated, but should only be violated for a good reason. For instance, in this case, the counter-balance is done clipped into the sling, so that it does not require you to hold on for safety. The lower off a munter on the anchor does not pass the whistle test, because it does require you holding on; but with the munter in the system, you need only hold on with 10-15 lbs, and it is the ONLY thing you are doing, when you do it. In a SAR situation, the lower would be backed up by a prusik minded by another person, so if everyone let go, the prusik would grab and nothing would happen.

Lots of details involved. The first few times you do this under pressure, you learn what details are important. Training is important. Practice is important. Not getting in trouble in the first place is most important.

Tom

Thanks guys. That's really interesting. Seems I have a book purchase in my future and that finding a nice sturdy oak tree to play with could be educational.

Sorry for the delayed response. I wasn't ignoring you - there was this small matter of getting elected to local government I had to attend to! :haha: :haha:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

There are a FEW complications that must be addressed with all this. We can cover this when you are out here.

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That would be the very definition of awesome!

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Seems I have a book purchase in my future and that finding a nice sturdy oak tree to play with could be educational.

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I'd recommend this over the book referenced above (I have both):

http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Self-Rescue-Improvising-Mountaineers/dp/089886772X/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_2

http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/client/Products/ProdimageLg/772X.jpg

Andy/Molly's book has easier to grasp explanations. I find the Falcon book a bit too cumbersome and I don't get take-away info other than the systems described are very complicated.

I'd be curious if anyone has looked at this (on your side of the puddle even):

On the BMC’s site, a DVD self rescue for climbers:

http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_inf...oducts_id=5270

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

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