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Ah, that's getting into the whole "knowing just enough to be dangerous" scenario. I find I end up second guessing myself massively over that - I mean, it's probably the stage I'm at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
ETA: Although I very much don't regard myself as bulletproof.
Heck.... if half a dozen Toyota's suddenly accelerated at full throttle it would probably be in all the fish wrappers, we would be having government inquiries and the general population might even be suggesting that heads should roll..... err..... Something like that.....
:five:
Amen brother. This is why I like reading this site and the yahoo group. Threads like this keep me thinking and reevaluating my own technique and safety and that of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Surprisingly, I agree with ICE and BDC - clueless beginners and over-confident noobs should definitely rappel on a double-strand of rope in order not to besmirch the "other technique"... :roflol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
:moses: Tom :moses:
(not including YOU in that Jman, sounds like you had a weird thing happen to you, and got a little banged up. As I said before, could happen to anyone, and it does).
Well, I rap single strand *and* I drive a Prius...Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
What must you think of me? :haha:
One more thought to throw in the pile.... In a brief moment of introspection I admit the following: I am much more inclined to be complacent on a stunt rappel than in a canyon. I am more inclined to be complacent at the end of the day than at the beginning. I am much more inclined to be complacent on the last rappel than the first (with the exception of Heaps). I am more inclined to be complacent when I know my mug is being photographed (particularly if I am in a wet suit -- gotta suck in the gut and think finesse and no flailing arms and legs) I am more inclined to be complacent on shorter to mid size raps (less than 100 feet) than longer raps. There is my confession for the day. :popcorn:
While Shane will opine that SRT is a deathtrap, I will counter and say--
No one has been killed or hurt from a SRT technique that was "PROPERLY" set up. (I'm just talking about the system here)
There have on the other hand, been numerous accident's, maybe even the highest number of accidents, due to loss of control or lack of friction. Those who read about SRT or see it on the internet, at times have no clue why to use SRT in the first place, and along with SRT, comes the requirement of knowing your rappel devices and "easily" being able to add friction mid rappel.
I personally see no reason in Jman's incident to use a single 8mm line. His situation screams--double strand. I rap double strand on 8mm line a lot, when the situation dictates it. I also use single strand 8mm and rig according to the rappel at hand.
I hardly think this incident, as I understand it, is a result of a biner block. It appears to me to be an accident as a result of too little friction on a rappel device, causing the rappeler to squeeze the brake hand so hard as to overheat and burn his hand. I would think the extra force of trying to squeeze the rope hard enough to slow down, also caused the cramping.
So I ask--Jman, why did you set up a block? You were the only person to rappel.
In a country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
Or, in your case...
My allegory for the day.
-Brian in SLC
I would also like to add--
Thank God your buddy chickened out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If this would have happened on a simul-rap..........................
:nod: :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Nothing personal, Sarah Lizzy. Brian and Shane beat this corpse-of-a-horse every time the opportunity presents. Mostly for sport, I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
:moses:
Heh. No worries - I've got a pretty thick skin and you've all spent longer doing this stuff than I ever will. I'm mostly happy if I'm competent (and lucky) enough to avoid becoming a statistic on either side of this debate!Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I'm curious what your non-brake hand was doing at the time you lost control? I don't suppose it was spasming, too?
It seems every time I hear of someone complaining about lack of friction their non-brake hand is uselessly holding the rope above their rappel device getting burned. When I want additional friction I'll grab both the carabiner and rope (below the rappel device) with my non-brake hand and press the rope into the carabiner. This creates quite a bit of friction, usually more than my original brake hand creates.
Sinlge strand is the least of your problems. :roflol:Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
Any of you that have been on top of this arch know why his buddy turned back. It gives me the heee beee jeeeebbeees. Been there once rappeled off once and not goin back.
Indeed. I know firsthand that the top speed of a Yugo filled with four ~200-pound 16-year-olds is 96 miles per hour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
And there's bolts up there, apparantly???Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
:moses:
Chicken and egg deal.... which came first???Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Do we talk about this so often for sport.... or do we talk about this so often because of the high number of accidents????
Just askin'.... :ne_nau:
and FWIW.... I think biner blocks, skinny ropes and single strand rope are all great tools.... maybe we just need to review the combination?
I mean really... a lawn mower is a great tool.... but not for trimming the hedge...
http://www.craneblogger.com/wp-conte...hedge-trim.jpg
When I was up there, there are two bolts with chains that are used as the primary rappelling ones. And then there are 4-5 other bolts just on south of it, maybe a 1-2ft away (I imagine for multiple rappellers).
My left hand was free and was just dangling until I got past the bottom of the arch and was free-hanging. Then I didn't apply enough friction on the rope and had a tie a mule knot to let my hand glove cool down (way too hot!)
From there I let go of the mule knot and continued on another 20 feet (without any problem or hesitation or worry, etc.) by just using my brake (right) hand, while my left hand was still dangling and waving in my pictures. And I wasn't going fast at all (just a slow, non-jerky, non-bouncy, "normal-rappelling speed"), when I pulled the mule knot. Then in a instant, just like that, that's when my hand just "gave up". It's so hard to explain what it felt like since I have never ever ever ever had that happen before.
And before I knew it, I was on the ground. Yes, Matt, I could of used my left hand to grab the rope and that would of saved me. But when you are freefalling to your death (that's what I thought) you are not in the best mentally reactive state...at least I figured that out. You might you be better at that than me...I dunno...You can tell me when you do have that experience.
Yea, oldno, if we did a simul-rap and both of us would of went down and we both got hurt - it would of been a long......long.........long...........long.......v ery painful........ excruciatingly painful....very cold dark night.
And not to mention, that when you break your hand or ankle, you have to be very wary of condition called "compartment sydrome". It's when the blood from the swelling goes into your tissues (because it has no room to expand) and those tissues die within minutes - which leads to amputation, if there is no treatment (they basically filet the organ or area to drain the blood) within 20 minutes.
It's a good thing I remembered that fact, and kept my shoes and socks on when Ian was doing a rapid assessment on me. The socks and shoes probably kept the swelling reduced...otherwise it would probably led to both feet or legs amputated. SCARY!
All I can say, is remember the transition and speed of descent when you transition from wall to free-rappel. Much different (unless you are super anorexic and amazingly skinny than you don't need to worry so much, but a fat man like me (190lbs) needs to remember it! Apparently, I forgot that for a second until I slowed myself down to let my glove cool down.
And, I broke #1 rule of rappelling, belay. That's what it comes down to.
I have plenty of experience, and as someone was mentioning above, I probably fit into the category of "I know everything and have enough experience that "nothing bad will happen to me" "...yeah right, If only I can see the future!!
Well, thanks for the well-wishs, as I have now re-read your posts and see that you don't mean it personally (I would think so). But I have an Ortho appt on Monday and possibly surgery next week. I'll keep ya up to date on it.
Oh, I'll try and get more pictures up.
Brian in Africa,
Yup, that was the device he was referring to. The Redpoint descender. Since I'm not a rock-climber (although I do a little bouldering) I have never heard of this.
You are right....they sound kinda iffy. But apparently my step-brother uses it and has worked "every" time. who knows....
They look like a hassle to bring...but even if it prevented me from catering, it would be worth it I suppose...I dunno. Not my specialty.