Canyon Rating System

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Ram liked listing a weight limit for tight slots. Others didn't.

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FWIW: Listing weights is worthless.... weight has nothing to do with it.... As anyone that has been stuck or trapped can tell you it's all about chest size. The rib cage is the limiting factor when squeezing..... if folks want to start providing a little more value to TR's, route descriptions or ratings its jacket size, or even better, and actual chest measurement that is most useful....

Not all canyeers are smurf's.... :haha:

http://www.mysteriousworld.com/Conte...eBarbarian.jpg

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

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Ram liked listing a weight limit for tight slots. Others didn't.

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FWIW: Listing weights is worthless.... or even better, and actual chest measurement that is most useful....

Not all canyeers are smurf's.... :haha:

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Not all canyoneers are guys either.... :nono:



:mrgreen:

You can squeeze beer guts and boobies through slots.... but rib cages don't compress.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

You can squeeze beer guts and boobies through slots.... but rib cages don't compress.

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well, they do a little, but makes breathing kinda hard...

pelvis another limit

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Originally Posted by hank moon

well, they do a little, but makes breathing kinda hard...

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That's a really scary deal.... you can gain about an extra inch by exhaling and collapsing you rib cage slightly.... but if it doesn't work you are in deep dodo.... I always figured that's what the guy who died in Nutty Putty must have done....

I've done it a couple times before but I'm usually pretty careful about when and where.... otherwise you end up stuck worse and have difficulty breathing.... being stuck in a slot is one of the scarier things I've had happen to me. Last time I was only stuck for about 15 minutes but it felt like 15 hours....

:popcorn:

I second hanks comments for sure. I've used the exhale technique numerous times ranging from squeezing in very tight alpine colorado caves, to shuffeling in the bottom of a tight utah slot. I'm always considering getting stuck thus very rarely allowing a complete collapse so as to have a back up short breath ability to problem solve momentarilly.

It's not very common for me to get stuck period, and of the one time I remember it happening recently it was my pelvis that became wedged. That was in trail canyon over freeze fest and was slightly scary for about a minute untill I figured out the key. I had to inch my way upwards to find a slightly wider opening to slide through.

I have two instances that come to mind where my body size wasn't the limiting factor but rather the size of my partners and my packs were the issue. I got stuck I think 2 times in shenannigans for about 15 minutes because of this. The second time was in alcatraz, after completeing the high spur we went over and dropped in with the mindset of racing through...

Well either we had some bad beta or we were under the wrong impressiion of what our beta was trying to tell us (perhaps the same thing with shennanigans). Either way we ended up lugging a 30' 10.5mm in one pack and a 60m 10.5 in another. I also had an inflateable pool float in my pack with the 30' rope, along with other un used saftey precaution gear.

It was horendous, we ended up setting up a relay system through the tight spots and ferrying packs over head up high. As if it wasn't hard and tireing enough to just lug them through, not to mention over head. It was a frantic panic as we were racing the sun and still had to find the exit and walk the rim maze. We made it out just before it got dark, went up a side canyon that dead ended, found the way to the rim as the sun set and walked the maze back to the car in the dark arriving at 11:30 pm. Epic.

In hind sight, I would bring only the equivilent to a 30' rope and pull cord and maybe 30' of webbing, leaving the 60 rigged at the entrance drop. Same thing with shenanigans, equivilent of a 30' rope and pull cord is all that is needed, maybe some webbing just incase the last drop had been ghosted by a previous party.

Good descriptions are super important in some instances. In both these examples just taking a quick glance at a rating would do little for you.

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Originally Posted by forum8fox

Well either we had some bad beta or we were under the wrong impressiion of what our beta was trying to tell us (perhaps the same thing with shennanigans). Either way we ended up lugging a 30' 10.5mm in one pack and a 60m 10.5 in another. I also had an inflateable pool float in my pack with the 30' rope, along with other un used saftey precaution gear.

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But of course, taking more gear makes you safer, right? :ne_nau: :haha:

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Originally Posted by forum8fox

It was horendous, we ended up setting up a relay system through the tight spots and ferrying packs over head up high. As if it wasn't hard and tireing enough to just lug them through, not to mention over head. It was a frantic panic as we were racing the sun and still had to find the exit and walk the rim maze. We made it out just before it got dark, went up a side canyon that dead ended, found the way to the rim as the sun set and walked the maze back to the car in the dark arriving at 11:30 pm. Epic.

In hind sight, I would bring only the equivilent to a 30' rope and pull cord and maybe 30' of webbing, leaving the 60 rigged at the entrance drop. Same thing with shenanigans, equivilent of a 30' rope and pull cord is all that is needed, maybe some webbing just incase the last drop had been ghosted by a previous party.

Good descriptions are super important in some instances. In both these examples just taking a quick glance at a rating would do little for you.

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It is important to use reliable information sources, and be careful of taking information off the Internet. For instance, if you use Jason's beta above for Shenanigans, you might find a 30' rope a bit short for that final 50' rappel. Perhaps Jason downclimbs the slimy chimney at the end, or swings out to drop 20' into the pool - most people will want to rappel all the way to the ground and will consider themselves fortunate to have brought a 50' rope and pull cord.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/north/shen.php

I also have 50' as the length of the 2nd rappel in Alcatraz, but I could be wrong there. Perhaps one can use the pool toy as an airbag to soften the 20' drop off the end of the 30' rope?

The point being, sometimes on the Internets people give 'information' rather casually that is important, and incorrect. Gotta be careful out there. Best to find and use a reliable information source, rather than 'I found it on the Internet, it must be true' stuff. Even books, sometimes, have a few hidden 'guesses' made by 'the Author' that can get you in serious trouble if not read carefully and precisely.

Tom :moses:

I agree about the relilable sources Tom, hence going in over prepared (since I don't actually REALLY know any of my internet sources). Those numbers were never stated to be beta or acurate at that, they were merely a guess. Really it was just to be used to understand what I was trying to portray.

Another example would be taking 2 60 meters and an additional 100' rope aswell as some webbing through no kidding after reading the story of the first descent. In this instance it caused us no harm(infact it may have even slightly eased the mind a bit as a back up if things got stuck), but two 60m would have worked fine. However the previously mentioned trips entailed more suffering then is necessary.

That's really the whole point I was trying to make(that reading the rating does nothing for these types of things, and that good descriptions are important). Not to try to supply accurate beta to some noob, especially when the numbers were not intended to be used in that manner in the first place.

And just a little background....

the day in high spur and alcatraz was my 3rd day ever, my second day ever leading other people, the over prepared ness most likely stemmed from that. The pool float deal was a precautionary measure as we didn't know if it would be dry or wet and we heard there was a keeper and thought it might help considering we had little experience.

Another thing, the first drop was rigged, with a harness hanging at the end of the rope, didn't think much of it... Everything in the whole canyon was fixed, and we really didn't need to take anything except harnesses and a belay device. The drop on the back side of the pot hole was fixed with webbing with small knots tied in it, I didn't even use a harness. I'm guessing less then 30' to the bottom.

As for the 60 m and 30' of webbing in shennanigans goes, I had no smaller ropes at the time and I wasn't going to go cutting into one of my long ropes.For the record, no I don't downclimb that drop, it's not possible :2thumbs: . Besides I've only been through it once and as I mentioned before we had a 60m which I can accurately say is atleast 100' too much.

BTW Glad to see you finally jumped on the (pick on Jason) bandwagon again. :lol8: :bootyshake: (this is kinda confusing, as I'm referancing numerous threads not just this one).

and let me clarify something one more time, NONE OF THIS IS TO BE USED AS BETA! it's just to be used to make a point.

Sorry if I'm comming off defensively, what's the point anyway we all know what a moron I am. :ne_nau: :haha: What could I possibly contribute? Oh I know, some common ground for you and Shane to get along about. :roflol: Keep it up guys, I like seeing you work together! :lol8: Boy is this fun or what??? :popcorn:

PS. I mean no dissrespect, just trying to stand my own ground and have a little fun on this boring Saturday afternoon. If you find it offensive I will retract my comments. I'm deffinately not here to step on toes or burn bridges. :rockon:

Didn't mean to be picking on you, ... much. Actually, you tossed a big, fat slow one for me right in the wheelhouse - what am I supposed to do, take it for a strike? Nah!!!

I hope if anyone else is reading this, they draw the right conclusion. Or perhaps, I should say MY right conclusion - which is - when picking information off the internet, be brand-cognizant! It is fairly reasonable for someone to choose an Internet conversation by TWO (count-em) TWO noted canyoneers as a place to get reliable info on canyon rappel lengths. Heck, Jason says you don't need more than 30' of rap capability to do Shenanigans - all those old farts like Shane and Tom always tell you to take WAY too much stuff...

Not.

Little sprinkle of snow and rain today in Mt Carmel. Looks like more rain for the southland - put off spring another week.

Tom :moses:

Nice, I'm glad you didn't take offence.
I'm curious...
when you say this:

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It is fairly reasonable for someone to choose an Internet conversation by TWO (count-em) TWO noted canyoneers as a place to get reliable info on canyon rappel lengths. Heck, Jason says you don't need more than 30' of rap capability to do Shenanigans - all those old farts like Shane and Tom always tell you to take WAY too much stuff...

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Are you calling me a notable canyoneer??? You should know better then to go feeding my ego. :roflol: Hell I've never claimed to be an expert why would someone take me as one when I often say I'm still a noob, just a highly capable one.(don't bite on this one, it's almost like I'm goin fishin so to speak)

Also, you must have missed this part: :ne_nau:

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As for the 60 m and 30' of webbing in shennanigans goes, I had no smaller ropes at the time and I wasn't going to go cutting into one of my long ropes.For the record, no I don't downclimb that drop, it's not possible . Besides I've only been through it once and as I mentioned before we had a 60m which I can accurately say is atleast 100' too much.

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OH and this one too:

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and let me clarify something one more time, NONE OF THIS IS TO BE USED AS BETA! it's just to be used to make a point.

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:2thumbs:

Thanks for entertaining me Tom, BTW it's just getting to be winter over in these parts, I'm going down the hill to shuttle some friends up the mountain since they have 2wd and it's snowing.