Stuck on Rappel needing rescue.

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12-08-2009, 05:08 PM
moab mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiecutter

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?
Mark

I'd be interested in learning this as well. I'd like to learn Tom's method, I think he says 30 sec to covert to lower. That'd be good to have in the bag.

Looking at the situation right now I can come up with throwing some new webbing up, rigging the rope behind the block with contingency, cutting the sling with biner block, and lower. But that involves cutting - outside the scenario rules.

Tom will probably chime in but that is how he pretty much does it. He posted on here a year or so ago about cutting the webbing. When I learned that I started leaving a longer tail with my biner block so I had enough to tie on the other rope to lower. Tom had decided a plasma cutter would be a little heavy to haul thru canyons to cut the biner so just cut the webbing.

As far as what kurt just asked, yes you would have to lift to remove the biner. Can you lift to get the biner out and then lower without ever having the person hanging on a prussic, tibloc etc alone?
12-08-2009, 05:16 PM
cookiecutter

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

As far as what kurt just asked, yes you would have to lift to remove the biner. Can you lift to get the biner out and then lower without ever having the person hanging on a prussic, tibloc etc alone?

This has turned out to be a very informative post, thanks!

For this situation I would probably rig the contingency onto the webbing and lock it off before hauling up to remove the biner. This way the weight is all on the prussic but there is redundancy with the already rigged contingency. In the event the prussic fails there will be some extension, not a lot, but some, so I'd make sure the anchor was solid.
12-08-2009, 06:02 PM
CarpeyBiggs

suspension trauma discussion is now in a separate thread.
12-08-2009, 06:19 PM
ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

This is just my 2 cents but I am not a fan of lowering someone. You usually cannot see what is going on , there is no belay in place, and what if when lowering the person gets comfortable and is not holding on with their brake hand and now there hair pulls loose. I would not allow any of my family to be lowered because the rope was not set to the right length so now we have to let out some more. If it is an emergency then yes but not to adjust the length and before I released their anchor I would of had some one else rappel down and see if they could fix the problem.
I can see where the contingency concept has merit in class c canyons. But not with my wife on the end.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

Practice produces understanding. No technique is useful if it is not understood. You should not lower people, if you have not practiced it in controlled circumstances so that you can understand it.

Which means, friend Mark, y'alls got some lowering to do, so that this eminently useful tool is inside your toolbox, rather than rusting on the ground behind the garage.

Personally, I like the two-broken-wrists scenario (call it the "Ricky Scenario") at the last rap in Pine Creek. Pick on someone robust, and let other people coach them. Alicia hated it, but hey, we were already 'divorced'.

T :moses:

Tom
12-08-2009, 08:02 PM
moab mark

What is the 2 broken wrist scenario?

Tom do you use a munter or a fig 8 for a contingency?

Mark
12-08-2009, 10:09 PM
ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldno7

Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.

My bet is a pick off is faster and more efficient than rigging a haul for someone stuck on a rope. I can't imagine hauling someone back up to an anchor who's hair was stuck in their rappel device, especially given some terrain considerations. And, rigging off what anchor? A stack of rocks with a sling sticking out of the sand? Also, the haulee couldn't do much to guide themselves away from any features (their hands would be fairly tied up). A pick off would be fast and might solve the problem much faster and the rappeller may just continue on their way.

All this stuff makes me think folks should be carrying an extra rope...!

And give thoughts to "rescue worthy" anchor solutions...

-Brian in SLC

As Kurty said, a pickoff is slow, complex and relatively dangerous. Hauling is even slower, is complex and relatively dangerous. Neither of these is at the top of my list. A haul, only when the victim is close and the haul can be effected quickly, especially useful whent he victim can help.

A lower tends to be fastest, safest, easiest - has most of the benes. The first technique to go to. Rap and assist (rather than a true pickoff) can also be a good choice. Helps to have the Pirana for either of those.

A pickoff CAN be efficient if it is well-practiced. Out-weighing the pick makes it quite a bit easier.

(Take Note, Bogle fans, Kurty and I AGREE!! :nod: )

Tom :moses:
12-08-2009, 10:17 PM
ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

What is the 2 broken wrist scenario?

Tom do you use a munter or a fig 8 for a contingency?

Mark

I use a Munter Mule. Can't see any reason to carry a piece of hardware to do something a knot can do just as well.

The "two-broken-wrist-scenario" is at the top of the last rap in Pine Creek, you turn to your wife and say:

"Tad just broke both his wrists. I'm not here. What you gonna do???"

If you're me, you then pull out your sandwich and a beer, and sit back and watch the show. Keep an eye on em, don't let em do anything stupid. Exercise great patience, and let them all work it out. I like to have the rule that they have to say what they are going to do before they do it (Think out loud). And that they can not ask me questions, but they can tell me what they plan on doing and I can say yeah or neh. And then, every couple of minutes I toss in a "could you be doing that better?" comment - whether I see something or not.

That's actually how John got stuck on rappel. After Nadine and Jim had done the two broken wrists scenario, John rapped down on the rope which was not hanging free (as a result of the rescue scenario), and was not paying attention to the rope below him, and hit a twistie 15 feet up.

Thankfully, I had my "rescue rope" at hand, and dashed down to try and help out.

:moses:
12-12-2009, 06:53 AM
moab mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiecutter

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark
12-12-2009, 07:56 AM
oldno7

A fisherman is not really designed to "grab" a rope.(function's better as a bend) I would prefer a "hitch", such as a prusik,klemheist, etc. Or a mechanical grab.
Leaving the biner in place, or tying a "safety" knot above the grab would be wise.
12-12-2009, 08:14 AM
moab mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldno7

A fisherman is not really designed to "grab" a rope.(function's better as a bend) I would prefer a "hitch", such as a prusik,klemheist, etc. Or a mechanical grab.
Leaving the biner in place, or tying a "safety" knot above the grab would be wise.

Would it be grabbing the rope or just acting like one side of a double fisherman. With the other side of the fisherman being the biner/rapide?
I have never had to do this but lowering on a 6mm prussic etc. when it has to pass over an edge seems a little risky? Couldn't the edge slide the prussic up?

Mark
12-12-2009, 08:27 AM
ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:
12-12-2009, 08:31 AM
moab mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:

I guess I should of stated the scenario a little better. You have a biner block with a 3" tail hows the best way to attach to lower? What about tying a stopper in the 3" tail and just clipping into the biner that is being used as the block?
12-12-2009, 08:34 AM
oldno7

Sure the edge can slide a hitch up, potentially. It can potentially also release a mechanical device, and abrade through a knot, even if the knot is made with thicker rope(8-9mm) Each instance will dictate the proper, or best tool for the situation.
12-12-2009, 08:39 AM
ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:

I guess I should of stated the scenario a little better. You have a biner block with a 3" tail hows the best way to attach to lower? What about tying a stopper in the 3" tail and just clipping into the biner that is being used as the block?

WHY oh WHY would you tie a biner block and leave only a 3" tail. Makes zero sense to me. ALWAYS ALWAYS leave enough tail to tie in another rope. At the least I usually pull out a foot or two.

But the answer to your scenario, yes, I would tie a single fisherman around the taut line below the rapide, and allow the rapide and blocked biner to snug up against the knot.

Sliding the rope down the rock with anything on it other than itself (a knot, a biner block, and bungle of block, knot and lowering system) is gonna be hard on the rope and scrape up the outside, even possibly cutting it.

Be careful out there.

Tom
12-12-2009, 08:40 AM
oldno7

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by moab mark

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:

I guess I should of stated the scenario a little better. You have a biner block with a 3" tail hows the best way to attach to lower? What about tying a stopper in the 3" tail and just clipping into the biner that is being used as the block?

3 frickin' inches??? Now your scarring me..............

edit: posted the same time as Tom
12-12-2009, 08:55 AM
oldno7

Also--If your going to be doing any lowering and a knot will be passed over an abrading surface, I suggest you wrap or pad the knot to protect it.
I have personally witnessed an 8mm canyon pro ds used in a similar incident, abrade through the sheath and start on the core in less than 8' of running over sandstone.
12-12-2009, 09:15 AM
moab mark

o

I am not leaving a 3" tail I just stated that for my scenario. My thinking was with the knot above the biner it may be harder to get the backup tight before cutting the webbing. But with the single fisherman below the rapide you might be able to clip into the webbing above the overhand knot and be able to take up the slack before cutting the webbing. Thus not needing another anchor?

Since I am suppose to be reconciling bank statements and I do not want to.

If I had someone needing lowering on a biner block. I actually would not do any of the above unless a last resort. Unless the poor victim was out cold I would just lower the other rope down with a biner in the end. I would have them clip it to their harness. Then rig it for a lower, take up the slack and then cut the other rapide out. Then lower on the new rope, do not have the problem of knot, rope grab etc going over the edge.

Now back to work. Work sucks.

Mark

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