I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived.

Man, I luv's me a good internet fight that I'm not involved in...

I wore a hole in my cord at a double fisherman's knot. Ok, was on my Prusik cord on my harness, but, still. Left that rig as part of a rappel anchor. I still miss it. My two biners more, though.

Haven't used a double fisherman's to tie ropes together for some time. Still see folks do it, though. I much prefer a flemish bend and will leave a loop on the down side if I might need a clip in point. Unless I'm rappelling free air and then using two tied in ropes to belay with (a sketchy practise for TRin' really long routes), I use an EDK almost exclusively.

As far as using daisy chains to anchor in with, I don't consider one any more.

http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html

I do from time to time consider a Metolius loopy chain anchor thingy (I think Sterling makes one too). Pretty bomber and no loops to bust. Also, bit more "give" than dyneema/spectra. Most often I just anchor in with a simple sewn sling or two.

Anyone use a Purcell Prusik with sewn webbing? The more I play with that style of anchor, the more I like it.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Man, I luv's me a good internet fight that I'm not involved in...

-Brian in SLC

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C'mon. Ya love em even more when you ARE involved, don't cha?

(affectionately)

Tom

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Originally Posted by Darling Felicia

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Yup. That's more or less what she described.

Your picture is from....?

T

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Originally Posted by Sir Tom

Your picture is from....?

T

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The picture is of the anchor at the last rappel in Pine Creek. This is the rigging that the group before us used. They were just about to pull the rope and I took a picture so I could figure it out later.


:-)

It's also a perfectly good use of a knot block as well as a double fisherman(joining 2 unequal diameter ropes)
The prudent group might leave the pull side on top until the last person(we'll call him/her LAMAR) raps, thus eliminating any confusion.
Judging from the photo it may have been equally prudent to rig double strand below the DF, but that might be an entirely different subject(rapping 2 unequal diameter ropes)

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Originally Posted by oldno7

It's also a perfectly good use of a knot block as well as a double fisherman(joining 2 unequal diameter ropes)

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A very good use of the "Sheet Bend" (back up knots as well) is to join two unequal diameter ropes. The "bend" creates less bulk to "hang-up" when pulled over a sharp edge, somewhat flat, similar to the EDK (backed up as well). Granted it is not as bulky as to create as adequate a "block" on its own, such as the DOFK.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Yup. That's more or less what she described.

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Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had. Rapping on the orange rope will not go through the rapide because of a knot block. A binner block could be substituted and do the same job as the knot block here.

I also spy free gear here. Did you take it? (a locking rapide)

Note to mods: this thread probably should be split into two maybe three threads. (1. I fell 106 feet; 2. Are ther issues joining two ropes with a double fishermens or other knots; and maybe 3. "rapping on the pull side" or "issues to watch for rapping SRT" but this could easily be part of discussion on I fell 106 feet.)

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

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Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

This is the rigging that the group before us used.

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Looks like you were following ZNP backcountry rangers... double fishermans and all....

If this is the setup katlin used and she really clipped to the wrong side I can see how the free end feeding through the biner and rapids might have slowed her down some.

:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

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Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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It still would've produced a fall, albeit perhaps a slower fall.

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

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Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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No! Maybe I'm blind but that saftey biner is not clipped to the anchor? :ne_nau: It is clipped to the rap strand. Rapping on the purple rope would cause a fall! Now if the saftery biner is clipped to the anchor then rapping on the pull strand would not cause a fall (assuming the pull strand is normal rope and doesn't have webbing at the end to extend the pull like Katlyin had). The last person has to unclip the saftery biner, and make sure to rappel on the rap side.

Kurt does have a good point. Leave the pull strand at the top in a rope bag. Clear as to wihch strand to rap on, only one. Last person down clips the rope bag to harness and raps.

ya you guys are right. I didn't notice it wasn't clipped into the anchor, pretty big oversight on my part.

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

I also spy free gear here. Did you take it? (a locking rapide)

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Why are the slings and 2 rapides there? What's wrong with going through the anchor ring?

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

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Originally Posted by Felicia

Why are the slings and 2 rapides there? What's wrong with going through the anchor ring?

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The slings and two rapids are used to tie the two anchors together. Your picture fails to show the second anchor located directly about the bottom anchor.

The idea is to have two of everything in the system so if one item fails you have a complete back-up.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg

[quote=Felicia]Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

Ice beat me to it. I had a big long responce to answer your question.

[quote=Felicia]

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

A little more food for thought here... I'm thinking the CP canyoneering community might be a lot safer if more people were using toss-n-go and rapping double strand.... I'm a big supporter of the KISS system..... I believe this is particularly true with beginners and intermediates..... Every additional step in the system is one more item you can screw up.

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Felicia

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Looks like the purple sling and an extra rapide that could be considered booty. The purple sling is litter, and SHOULD be removed, as it gets in the way of inspecting the anchor, and is an inappropriate color. :nono:

A second rapide? Well, people seem to like em, not sure why. Once in a while we get those gravity pulses where gravity goes up by 20X and un-backed-up 8000 lb rapides break, but they are pretty rare. :lol8:

Tom :moses:

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Originally Posted by Darling Iceaxe

Yes, by clipping back into the rope the system can not pull through...

....and to toss a little cheese into the rat infested darkness.... if Keith Beidermann had of rigged his Heaps rappel like this his system would not have failed.... maybe something to learn from these accidents...

Correct, last person has to rig the rope so it will pull...

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There are other, more productive things to learn from Keith's demise. Like, spending the night at the top of the last raps when exhausted is a better choice than heading down in the dark.

Hopefully, most of us have already figured out that if you screw up your rigging, you could die.

Tom