or use a different biner...Quote:
Originally Posted by ag23
:moses:
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or use a different biner...Quote:
Originally Posted by ag23
:moses:
OMG, glad he is OK, very very lucky methinks.
X100!!! It is one thing to KNOW contingencies, another to use as my standard OP. I gotta say, JUST LOOKING AT THE JESTER SETUP SCARES ME. :nono: I was taught when rapping to always check the whole anchor/rope setup, no matter who did it, b4 I commit. And that takes very little time if you have a simple bolts and rings/links, or bomber webbing & links anchor, and a rope thru the rings. If I saw the Jester, I would NOT rap until I knew 4sure that it was safe. And how in the HE-- can u tell??? :ne_nau: And then, as they should, ever person in the group has to stop and doublecheck the Jester b4 they rap too???Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
No thanks. :facepalm:
I wonder if it is just at the first of the rap that it slips-- no tension/force to a lot? I use the Jester at places where I need to move a group through a rap more quickly. One is hooking up as one is rapping at the same time. I will test this out a bit more however. Very curious. Tom, I have used two biners, one on one side and the other on the opposite side of the totem. I don't know what that did to the system other than add one more piece of equipment. It is funny but I initially didn't trust the Jester either until I used it a bunch. It is not the go to set up. Rap and go or biner block is the go to set up for me. The jester has a purpose and I use it when needed.
I meant, use two biners in the same position, essentially a double-wide biner. The back/front biner thing does not change the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
I'm not sure doing it plaquette style would then also allow it to be used to lower.
ahem...
I don't see how you can look at this and NOT be scared. There is no mechanism that 'locks' it.
I think you can see that with a small rope, it would not lock at all. Say, 6mm pull cord. But with a big fat rope it would lock for sure - say, 12mm. So somewhere between, there is a point where it would slip under some load. Where is that point? What is the "some load"?
I don't know where that point is. What I do know is that that point is in there somewhere, and I do not like systems like that.
Also, since it is essentially a rappel device set up with high friction, it may work fine for normal rappelling, but when you get a 'big-boned' individual on it, or some bouncing around, it could start slipping. Since dynamic friction is lower than static friction, it is likely once it starts slipping that it would accelerate until a kink in the rope stops it from running (or the victim lands on a ledge).
C'mon down sometime Scott, and I'll teach you the Stone Knot; and how to convert it to a lower. The Stone Knot LOCKS, is easy to tie, does not require another piece of gear, and works very well to achieve the same result...
jus' sayin'...
Tom
I still stand behind and present my original question? A Fellow "C" and Canyon "H" still comes to mind when I see all this complexity! I'm with "Ice". Thread the rope and go! I'm gettin' cold standin' here!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
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What advantage would this have in a first descent or x/r? (Asking because I'm curious on the advantage, not because I'm arguing with this).Quote:
What happens if you want to descend high-flow canyons, first Descents, x/r?
So far, only the OP has mentioned Carlson. Who is trashing Carlson?Quote:
Also, I think that many are using this example as an excuse to trash Carlson.
It would be worthwhile discussion to point them out and discuss them.Quote:
But they are also overlooking that fact that there are about 5 mistakes in this piss-poor rigging job....and they are all mistakes that Carlson teaches prior to even demonstrating the Jester.
Yah, I didn't think it did. Thanks for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
What you say makes sense, oh engineering one. Although as a big boned one, I have never had a problem, personally.Quote:
Also, since it is essentially a rappel device set up with high friction, it may work fine for normal rappelling, but when you get a 'big-boned' individual on it, or some bouncing around, it could start slipping. Since dynamic friction is lower than static friction, it is likely once it starts slipping that it would accelerate until a kink in the rope stops it from running (or the victim lands on a ledge).
I know how to do the Stone Knot but I am interested in the conversion. I may be an old dog, but I still want to learn new tricks.Quote:
C'mon down sometime Scott, and I'll teach you the Stone Knot; and how to convert it to a lower. The Stone Knot LOCKS, is easy to tie, does not require another piece of gear, and works very well to achieve the same result...
jus' sayin'...
Let see..... I've been doing this for a really long time and never had even a minor injury in any of my groups. To me that sounds like a good model. YMMVQuote:
Originally Posted by BW123
I know all of the silly rope tricks and can use them if required, I'm just smart enough to know they are inviting disaster.
But you guys are more than welcome to keep calling my techniques antique or simple while you keep injuring and killing each other.
Sent using Tapatalk
How's your conversion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
In 200 days of guiding, I have had to do a lower 3 times. My preferred overall method is to use a Stone Knot, and have my conversion to a lower down pretty well. My current best time on the conversion is 2:15. Average time more like 3:00. Practice practice practice.
In a real class C canyon, I'd go with a real contingency anchor, specifically munter mule. I object to carrying a separate piece of gear for a contingency anchor - it's just not my style.
But, we all develop our own style. My style may be right FOR ME, but other people will make other choices.
=====
Overall, I find *something* shocking here. I am an engineer, and my style is to understand things. I worry when other people "appeal to authority". Just because Rich (or Spidey, or Jonathan, or Hank, or Bo, or ICE, or ME) present something, that does not mean it is "safe". Hank and I look at this and see a high-friction setting on a rappel device, which makes it inappropriate to use as an anchor, as it depends on various parameters to provide enough friction for it to not slip. I find it disturbing that other people don't see this...
Tom
We need your permission for that? :roflol::roflol::roflol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
But thanks anyway. :cool2:
Tom :moses:
Tom, I "see this". I didn't believe the Jester would work until I tried it. I have since used it many times, successfully. I also didn't believe the sand trap, until I tried it. I wouldn't want to shock load that or bounce on it either but it works. I don't see the Jester as an inherently bad thing. I think it has a place and a time. I would like, however, to see other options too and then pick for the situation. I am interested in the stone conversion process. If it requires prayer, I am there. :haha:
__
__
My question/statement stands: Why the semi-complex "Jester Rigging" is taught at all if it has flaws?! The Munter hitch has been used for hundreds of years and may not be the most efficient method of lowering, but is proven to work, has minimal resource needs, is simple to rig and doesn't require special tools! I'm pretty certain that the photo of the rigging that was presented is actually taken prior to the accident and I didn't see the high flow? Maybe I'm missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by BW123
Again......WTH! Why would you even suggest a technique that has 5? possible flaws possible to begin with? Please show the correct way the rigging should be executed BW! So far I've heard many chime in with comments that range from "It works for me" and "I've had it slip on me"? So now are we using a system that has percentages of successful use?Quote:
Originally Posted by BW123
Bo
__
Forgive me if I spoil anyone's fun by providing accurate information ...
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanCan...ingAssociation
Feel free to copy any of the Jester rigging photos from the Facebook page and paste them here to continue your discussion.
Carry on.
Quote:
What advantage would this have in a first descent or x/r? (Asking because I'm curious on the advantage, not because I'm arguing with this).
Quote:
- My point was to increase your knowledge-base in general. I don't mean to elude that this actual technique would be useful in any of those situations.
OK, then what safety advantages does it have in a different situation? Which situation would this present a safety advantage? I’m asking because I am curious on the advantage.
Quote:
So far, only the OP has mentioned Carlson. Who is trashing Carlson?
Quote:
- Many familiar with Carlson's history and interactions with individuals on this forum might find this question naive.
[FONT=Verdana]
When it comes to Carlson’s history/interactions, you are correct that I’m pretty na
Here are the pictures RC is talking about:Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwild
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwild
Nice ropes in that first picture. The munter on the lowest biner is ... unrelated, right?
"Forgive me if I spoil anyone's fun by providing accurate information ..."
Thanks for the pictures Rich. Seems unlikely that you waded through the thread, since your additional information does not really provide any new information, and it is unclear that any of the information in this thread was inaccurate. There are a variety of opinions expressed, but there seems to be no 'information' that is not consistent across the various opinions.
Tom
Poster for the upcoming Italian rendezvous:
Attachment 57020
What's interesting to note, is, how the contingency is rigged. Easy, fast, simple.
That "brake" step looks critical to me.
The Heaps accident was 5 years ago (2007) and I think it has a major relevance to this discussion. One of the contributing factors to the accident was needlessly complicating the rigging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
:cool2:
Original:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1343220151
Rich's:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1343321320
A few points of confusion (I guess I'd have to see it in person):
1. I'm still a bit confused about the purple sling in the first photo. It can't be used as a tagline and it isn't a backup anchor. Are people tying off to this at the top of the rappel?
2. I'm also slightly confused about the second upper biner (the one on the left) in the first photo; the rope goes through the biner and the RQ/L. Is this by design?
3. Seems like the system would work better in the second photo (Rich's) because it is clear of the rock. The one in the first photo it seems that there are several places where any horizontal movement of the setup would create lost of metal/rock drag. Also, the biner on the right should be reversed so the gate is facing out. Horizontal movement probably wouldn't be enough to unscrew the gate (or is this an autolock?-either way...), but it could drag it across the rock and it's always good to have them facing out (keeps them cleaner as well).
It sounded to me that he was referring to your Heaps descent (which I don't know much about).Quote:
Either way, it seems that this discussion gives one a headache reading through it all.
Rich,
I hope you stick around for a sec. It appears that *most* of the people on this thread think the Jester is not the best way to rig a contingency. I would like to hear your opinion on the matter. (I assume you invented the Jester)
What advantage does the Jester have over a Munter/Mule? Do you think it is more or less likely to be properly set than the Munter/Mule?
Bob
LOL what a goldmine of misinfo this place is, who is this guy? Is he the teacher that originally devised this method? I'm really enjoying reading this garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwild
Pretty obvious it's just a safety clip so he can mess with it and not fall. But somehow having an independent webbing and extra biner makes this system fail? LOL part 1!Quote:
I have no idea why the purple webbing and brown carabiner are in the system. The brown carabiner appears to be clipped around the yellow rope between it and the Totem. This is incorrect and may have contributed to the slippage.
I think this is unnecessarily harsh and kinda douchey, I am hard pressed to see the ANY difference between the 2 setups....Quote:
Received this photo in an email this morning. It was posted on a forum somewhere with a story about the rope slipping through. I'm not surprised. This was supposedly rigged in Jester mode, but I have never seen it so poorly rigged. Keep in mind the Jester works because it provides friction at three points, similar to the Joker.
I have seen rope slip a few inches when using new 8mm rope with a heavy person on rappel on only two occasions. Even though slippage is extremely rare when rigged correctly, with ropes under 9mm -- if you are setting up the Jester for a single-rope contingency -- tie a mule and overhand or a couple half hitches through the round hole with the brake strand of rope.
Attachment 57021Attachment 57022
Yet somehow he has never seen one so poorly rigged? Assuming the one he posted is the correct way, and assuming the one in the accident is the worst one he's every seen. It becomes very obvious to me that this system is just too complicated to use. So either this guy is greatly exaggerating just to be mean to @ag23 and discredit him, or this entire system is garbage.
Ha! LOL #3 in one thread, this place is comedy gold. :crazy:Quote:
I just learned where this was posted. Bogley. I can tell you what is transpiring on that forum without even looking. A handful of self-anointed experts who have never even seen the Jester, let alone actually learned how to use it properly, are offering their critiques. LOL Some things will never change.
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...8978#post28978
Quote:
SECOND PHOTO -- BOTH STRANDS FIXED
Friction is provided in three places; (1) rope in left slot, (2) rope through rappel ring, and (3) rope in right slot. With this much friction, the rope is fixed allowing each strand to be loaded independently. Like the Joker. Someone rapping on left strand while another person rigs on the right strand. Etc.
If you need to lower someone to the ground (contingency rigging), remove the opposite bight of rope from the black carabiner.
So use two half hitches to secure it or the ropes are fixed? Maybe it depends on this guy's mood. Or maybe it's a convenient retraction now that someone almost died. :ne_nau:Quote:
Illustrating what I meant about tying off the brake strand with a mule and overhand or two half hitches. Used two half hitches in the photo. If you are using the Jester as a double rope contingency this is obviously not necessary. If you are using the Jester to creep the rope this is obviously not necessary.
It is not really necessary with the 9.2mm rope in the photo, but it only takes a few more seconds, so why not.
__
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
The purple is my safety tether and biner, so not relevant to the discussion. (I obviously wasn't NOT going to rappel) Sorry for the confusion, I should have included a description with it.
This was not a perfect rigging, but not in any way that contributed to the accident. You can watch my video where I have a rigging failing with just a slight tug.
And for the record, that "Brake" step was not part of the class I took. Here a picture of how Rich rigged it at that class - No Munter!
-Andre
I think 1) is a tether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
3): great point. Since contingencies are rigged for, uhh, contingencies, if that locking carabiner's gate can't be opened because the screwgate mechanism is either jammed from debris from rubbing, or, screwed tightly due to rubbing against the rock, one might be a touch in a pickle if you needed to undo and go help. That, or you just left a spendy addition to the anchor...
Fun thread!
Hey, is that Stoney Point?Quote:
Originally Posted by ag23
Hi Rich,Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwild
I appreciate you weighting in on this. I gather from your facebook posting you have some issues with my rigging. Please note the purple webbing is my tether, and obviously I wasn't going to rappel. The direction of gate, a cross loaded rapide, what would have happened if a bolt failed, have all been brought up too. I'm the first to admit that the rigging wasn't perfect, but nothing about it contributed to the accident.
I posted a video here from my back ally show how easily the rope pulled through the jester with only a moderate tug, essentially failing with only a couple hundred pounds of force. Have you had a chance to look at that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUm8P...p;feature=plcp
Secondly, you posted a picture labeled "Brake" with the munter hitch - I don't recall that being part of the Totem course, appearing in those pictures, or being anywhere on the canyoneering forums. I certainly didn't use it following weekend when I ran Bailey Canyon with one of the guys helping you with the class, and we rigged multiple jesters that day.
Here's a picture from the class.
Attachment 57025
http://www.meetup.com/ACA-Canyoneeri...0792/84780202/
Can you confirm this is a new configuration since the class?
-Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
It was Stoney Point - where you there for that class?
-Andre
No, but I've climbed there. Thought I recognized the boulder in the background...Quote:
Originally Posted by ag23
note I've never used the jester & not pretending or claiming to be an expert. I do know you can release & lower using a bd atc-guide using leverage to lift the device to reduce friction with the rope. in your video the jester looks like it starts out with leverage. it appears to catch once the leverage lifting the device up and threading rope through stops. is this how it works & or problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by ag23
Nope, that rope isn't suppose to move at all. And it doesn't catch me - I just reach the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by trackrunner
-Andre
Tom, I'm not sure I understand. Certainly you are correct that this system is like two stacked rappel devices with some extra friction in between, but you do not like systems that release under some load (which is less than the breaking strength of the equipment)? What about the sand trap? I suppose you don't like the water trap now, but what if that accident hadn't happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Would you recommend against other friction-only riggings like the Joker (same idea as Jester, but two figure 8's are used as the friction devices instead of two sticht plates)? What about a figure 8 block? It doesn't have any knot-like characteristics that apply the weighting tension to another strand to "lock" them in place either, so it is a friction-only rigging as well. I'll have to admit that I'm not scared when I look at a figure 8 block, but perhaps I've been overlooking something important. I definitely see that there is a distinction between "locking" riggings where increasing tension increases holding force by more than the tension increase, and "non-locking" riggings that will slip eventually and it's only a matter of how much force needs to be applied.
I think you will find, Andre, that it is a good idea to not put your safety leash into the rapid link where the rope goes. If your leash biner does not fit in the chain, toss a sling into one of the links and clip into that. Clipping around the chain (like the brown biner in the picture), aka the "Minnesota Clip", as has been pointed out, is not a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by ag23
I disagree that the rigging shown did not contribute to the accident. The differences between Rich's configuration and your configuration are small, but they are significant. You have crap in the way that does not let the rope align tightly against the body of the Totem. This changes the friction generated; and may have contributed significantly to the accident.
Personally, for me the system is too sensitive to small changes. You made some small changes. Hard to say how those small changes effect the system friction without some specific testing.
Tom
The figure eight, as far as I know it, its pretty "locked off" when you twist and put a sort of half hitch into it to secure the loop. And, I have always seen folks then clip that off as well, securing it for all but the last person.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjp
Who has a good photo of a locked off figure eight, or, the current Stefan Hofmann riggin' of it? Post up!
Thanks.
You're talking apples and pomegranates.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjp
Sandtrap:
We have some fancy anchor devices for use when other anchors are not available and/or terribly inconvenient. When we use the Sandtrap, (usually) only the last person rappels on it without a solid meat-anchor backup, and only after it has been thoroughly tested using a rappeller who is heavier and rougher than the final person will be. And the final person is not likely to be a beginner, and is unlikely to over-body-weight load the anchor.
As a product (and as a technique), the Sandtrap is released as a specialized tool for special circumstances, that requires considerable judgment to use, judgment best developed by using it with people that have already learned how to use it. Most of the sales of SandTraps have been to people who had previously used them in the field, and had already been trained (most, not all).
You might notice that the water trap has not been "released". It is not yet in a releasable state. Still working on it, slowly.
Joker/Jester:
This is a technique that people are trained to, using a specific piece of gear (Totem). Certainly Andre thought he could just go out and use it, with whatever ropes, and with a bunch of beginners. I think Scott has more or less said the same thing - he uses it frequently with beginners, and without a special concern about small/slippery ropes.
The Figure-8 blocks I have seen have an extra loop of rope that acts as a lock. It is not just friction partly because there is rope-across-rope interaction that tends to lock with more force.
To me, the other difference is that the Jester method is offered in a place where many other riggings could be used. Does this have advantages over other methods? Yeah, I can see that it would be great to have a system that sets up quickly, allows both strands to be used independently back and forth, AND provides contingency setup on each of those strands. That would be a nice system, if it worked.
Tom
The Jester and Joker are releasable versions of the Stone knot -- all three isolate both strands allowing people to rappel on either strand while the Munter/Mule does not. The reason one might want the option to rappel on both strands is to have someone rappelling at all times in a big group; the next person rigs while the previous person is on rappel. This is extremely useful in certain circumstances, like taking a group of 12 through Little Santa Anita with 10-12 small rappels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
I can only speak from personal experience, but I find it much easier to rig, teach others to rig, and check the Joker than a Munter/Mule. Like the Joker, the Jester essentially has just 3 simple steps -- clip Totem to anchor, push rope into sticht slots, clip carabiner through bights. The Munter/Mule has 4 steps and more details to get right -- clip quickdraw to anchor, tie Munter with rappel strand to lower carabiner, tie a slip knot with a bight from between the lower carabiner and quickdraw, tie an overhand with bight.
East, fast, simple, and doesn't accomplish what the Jester does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
And, y'know, not drowning in an Italian rendezvous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
This is the important piece of information ag23 has graciously provided from his experience and follow-up testing: don't use a Jester with thin rope, especially if it's new. I'd be interested in how much force it takes to slip various rope types in the Jester. I'd do the experiment but I don't have a Totem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ag23