Glue on PVC works really well.
When used.
Tom
Printable View
Glue on PVC works really well.
When used.
Tom
Just be sure it's proper PVC cement and not some random glue. PVC cement is PVC dissolved in a solvent. It creates an all-PVC bond, no interfaces to some other material. Thus the term "solvent welding".Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
:haha::haha::haha:--only canyoneers, could come up with 177 different ways to--"Make a Stick" :haha::haha::haha:
I'm finding all this technical stuff so interesting, I might have to start canyoneering just so I can experience it in person!! :haha:
I have field tested several options as a fiddlestick, and have settled on a Rubbermaid refrigerator coil brush handle. I bought it at Ace Hardware for $7. It is a perfect diameter, about right friction, wont kill you on the way down, won't expand when wet, and has a pre-drilled hole. I am concerned that at some point the hole could be blown out. It is about 14 inches long, but could easily be trimmed down if desired. Has anyone found anything else besides sail batten, PVC or metal that they like?
Attachment 55316
Attachment 55317
Attachment 55318
Sonny Lawrence and friends recently did some extensive testing and analysis of the Fiddlestick and knots, including pictures. Interesting stuff. It can be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/64998
I've been using a section of a carbon fiber ski pole with a wooden dowel snugly fitted inside. No pic handy but it's strong, light, and durable.Quote:
Originally Posted by PG Rob
If folks don't belong to the canyons group, I'll repost here:
Posted by Sonny on the canyons yahoo group:
Paul Stovall, Mark Binder, Trevor Walton and I did some preliminary testing on
releasable anchors variously referred to as Fiddlestick, J Rods, toggles and
pins which acted in concert with a variant of the Stein hitch. It should be
noted that only a few iterations of a particular system were run. Hence one
cannot make a statistical evaluation of the results. Rather, the results show a
trend. Such information would then be used to guide further testing. There are
many confounding parameters such as new vs. old rope, clean vs. dirty rope, wet
vs. dry rope, rope diameter, rope material, rope construction, pin construction,
pin shape, pin diameter, pin coating. Also note that such anchors should be
considered as advanced. They require a lot of practice in a safe environment
before being used in canyons.
For the test we used Imlay Canyon rope, size 9 mm and 8 mm. We used 6 pins:
nylon 6 tapered, HDPE, aluminum, oak, piton and nylon 6 straight. Paul made the
"nylon 6 tapered" by drilling a hole through the center and tapering it slightly
from the center to the ends. That gave it a waist. The oak has been used in
canyons over the past few years as a pin for a similar system. It originally was
coated with polyurethane which is partially rubbed off. The piton is from the
70s. Paul made a pin out of aluminum and flattened the end to attach a cord to.
The HDPE material was cut as a flat piece. All pins ranged in length from 4 to
6 inches. Please see photographs.
The "anchor" was a rapide suspended in air. The rope being tested was passed
through it to simulate going around an object such as a rock or tree. A fifty
(50) pound weight was suspended in air on a tether such that when the system
released, it would not hit the ground. That weight was chosen to simulate the
forces an anchor would see if an adult was hanging on a rope that had a lot of
friction where it touched the rock. So for example on a particular rappel the
force on an anchor from a 180 pound person might only be 50 pounds. In addition,
the weight was increased to 100 pounds and later 150 pounds. This simulated
increasingly less friction of rope over rock.
Most of the testing was done with the pull down rope being less than or equal to
15 degrees from the rappel rope. That was to simulate both ropes leaving the
anchor roughly together. This is referred to as "vertical." One test was run
with the pull down rope perpendicular to the rappel rope. This is referred to as
"horizontal."
The Stein used was always tied from an overhand, not a figure eight. It was tied
in the "up" position, i.e., the doubled rope was looped. The loop was then
flipped toward the anchor in order to pull through a bite for the pin to be
placed under. As the testing progressed, it was realized that there was a trend
for the release force related to how the pin was placed in the Stein. The Stein
is asymmetrical with respect to the bite of rope pulled through (that the pin
will be placed under). One can describe it in terms of which side the rappel
rope is aligned with. Please see photograph for an example. Consequently as the
test progressed, notation was made as to if the pin was inserted on the same or
opposite side as the rappel rope. This is called "Stein-pin relation." Also,
depending on how the Stein is tied, the rappel rope can be just above the pin
(hence touching it) or it can be above the tail's loop. A distinction was then
made as to the rappel rope being "high" or "low." This is called "Rap loop
relation." See photograph.
The force needed to release the pin was measured with a dynamometer held (and
then caught) by the person testing.
Photographs in our Yahoo pictures at: http://tinyurl.com/cl3n26b
Spreadsheet at: our Yahoo files named stein.xls
Video at: <http://vimeo.com/43748768>
Trends
1) If more weight was used to simulate the person on rappel, much more force was
needed to release the pin.
2) Release forces roughly averaged for the following Stein-pin configurations:
opposite/high 20 lbs
opposite/low 23 lbs
same/high 29 lbs
same/low 34 lbs
3) Little difference was seen between 9 mm and 8 mm rope.
4) Different pin materials behaved differently with aluminum requiring the
highest average release force and nylon the lowest.
Implications
1) If indeed there is significant difference in release force depending on the
Stein configuration chosen, this might be useful at a particular rappel. So for
example, if in the judgment of the canyon team, the pull down is going to be
difficult, the configuration of opposite/high would be chosen due to its lower
release force. Conversely if the pull cord was being influenced by moving water,
the Stein configuration of same/low would be chosen in order to minimize the
likelihood of a premature release with the last person still on rappel.
2) Never allow the last person to deploy the pull cord from a pack upon rappel.
The release forces are in a range that could easily be obtained with deadly
consequences.
3) Keep your full weight on this system while on rappel until you are on the
ground.
4) Depending on the Stein configuration, two pins of different materials, say
steel vs. nylon, may be made to release at similar forces.
Anywho... Here's my latest incarnation. I l use the tapered section of an aluminum ski pole (haven't test the strength yet, but the taper makes it slick) and a locking clove hitch which will not loosen when unweighted. It's nice because the fiddlestick remains in line with the rope unlike with the stone knot which orients the stick perpendicular, and from what I've read in this forum and others, is one problem with the stone. The locking clove unfurls just like a normal clove hitch when the stick is pulled. I've only played with this in the yard and will do some refining.
http://img.tapatalk.com/a693580f-ebe1-47da.jpg
I think you are missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
A fiddlestick leaves NOTHING behind. Looks like you are leaving a sling with a ring, which is about half of the story.
Tom
So how exactly do you leave nothing behind? Are you just wrapping rope around something? Are you tieing the rope to a Rapide on webbing, putting the tail through the other rapide and then just doing the fiddlestix furhter down the line?
Just wrapping the rope around something.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcmault
With that in mind, you might want to go back and read the thread from the beginning.
Tom
Looks like I'm not the only one
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4d995-e4cb-581d.jpg
The way that I demonstrated still maintains several advantages over having to pull the whole rope. Does it not? Most of the canyons I do have existing anchors. My method helps to minimize impact (rope grooves in rock); makes for faster, cleaner pulls, and allows me to carry less gear. Do these have no merit of themselves if webbing is left?
Boots
It has considerable merit, mostly in minimizing rope grooves. As I said, that is about half of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
Tom
I see this mostly as a really great way to kill yourself. But, at least you guys are puttin' some thought in it.
Take something safe like rappelling, and, make it as sketchy as you can...what do you get? Canyoneering...
x2Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
I have a question: Outside of having to run the rope through a rapide or rap ring or carrying (2) 100' ropes in lieu of a 200' rope for a 90' rappel for example, what advantage(s) would the fiddlestix have over the CEM or Macrame? I can see maybe a smoother disconnect at the anchor which would be nice if you're rappelling into a slot or area where you can't step back to pull the rope. Just looking for other ideas & opinions on advantages to help justify carrying more gear.
Bump.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
:moses:
The fiddlestick method is a releasable system, there are many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit2Sea
choosing the right one for any particular application is the canyoneers job.(mostly what you feel comfortable with)
Some involve more hardware some less.......
I never use a cem but have considerable rope time on a macrame as well as a couple others, including a fiddlestick.
I found the macrame to be unreliable. It would get stuck. The release depends on the friction properties of the rope, which vary from rope to rope and from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit2Sea
The FiddleStick was developed to create a robust, reliable, non-pull-through, no-trash system. I like that it is turning into a craft project, rather than a product that I would be obliged to produce. Some people will have no use for it - I consider it an esoteric piece of equipment / technique that should probably not become used generally.
Tom :moses:
CEM?Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit2Sea
Never had a problem with a macrame holding or releasing. What I have found, however, is macrame's tied incorrectly by several people.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I truly believe they work well when tied proper. I can't help but think that Sonny tied his wrong when he tried to kill himself several years ago.
I will qualify my statement by adding, I mostly use the macrame on shorter drops, 40'-.
I feel much more warm and fuzzy, using a fiddlestick/Kurt releasable type system on longer drops.
I always find it interesting when folks will use an anchor or method for a 40' drop and not a 200' drop.... to me the anchor is either good or it's not.... I try not to let height play a big part in my decision making.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
So--let me ask you this...........Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I've seen several instances where you have chosen to rap of a hook. Right?
So why don't you only use a hook for all your anchors?
Should be the same from 10'-1000', right?
.
Attachment 55532 (with photos)
CEM stand for "Canyones En Mexico" (forgive my spelling). It is a complex hitch using sheep shank style. Some people have simplified it by not tying the backup and instead using three sheep shanks. Below is a copy of the description.
CEM Knot The Mexican recoverable anchor, by ChanockThis document I made with the intent to disclose more technical and detailed features and proper preparation of the knot CEM, as for many who have had the opportunity to see the field application of the knot seems to be too many steps and very complex but is relatively simple and easy to learn to do without errors ... Within this document you will find the application of the lump in one of the most common scenarios in the world of adventure and sports verticals: Pin to a tree for a rappel rope and then recover easily without leaving your computer or use a extra material than our rope.The behavior of this node varies by the characteristics of the string to be used either by diameter, be dynamic or static even in the same condition as found (wet abarrada, dirty or dry) and we should consider these factors when when applying the knot. This type of harnesses recoverable are referred to as "techniques of fortune", and that is why I invite you to be installed and used by the responsible member of the group, you know and have full experience in the installation of the knot and being used only for the last to do the rappel.I invite you to meet, learn and use ...CONTENT1. Background of the knot CEM 2. Development of EMC knot 3. Observations on rappel 4. Recovery of the rope5. Observations on the back 6. Overview of the knot 7. CEM knot strength CreditsWARNING: It would be unwise to descend a canyon only interpreting the data contained in this document and inexperienced previa.cañonismo.com not responsible for any incidents arising from the interpretation of the data.BACKGROUND OF THE KNOT CEMSince I was in the Scouts in the group 16 Grecos clan in the province Jalisco (1989), I always present the mystery of power "overthrow" the rope without touching it climbing over the surface of the rock to the top of the rock or wall and the risk of rubbing off so that no matter what harm he suffered rope definitely not succeed to recover.In 2005 my friends and fellow of the Association, CEM / AC Cannons in Mexico, Jose "Pepe" Navarro and Agustin Lizarraga, having taken their first years of canyoneering with ACA / American Canyoneering Association, talked about some techniques I learned to retrieve the rope after a rappel done, a situation that inspired me to learn and start using these harnesses of fortune, this being sparking in me the idea of developing "A recoverable harness that offers solutions for both alternatives com canyon caving, climbing and vertical work. " With the experience already gained with other anchors recovered, I had to do some tests with the knot in their infancy and with my fraternity brothers every experience with my knots resulted: more information and disadvantages, so making adjustments was very important because during the testing process was raised in an accident with a "Fetus knot", a situation which led to a detailed analysis of the failure and subsequent resolution of them resulting in CEM knot, it was later adopted above other good knots for my fellow gunners, having its official launch at the International Meeting of ACA canyoneering 2006 in Sierra de Quila, Jalisco, Mexico, where he was welcomed by the gunboat community, especially by my friend William "Sonny" Lawrence. CEM ELABORACIÓND THE KNOT To start with the first phase of the node will need to follow these first four steps, which are performed sequentially and respecting each of the lines of work (Line line rappel and recovery).After completion of first phase of the knot pa we will do what is commonly known as "lock" system that makes the knot CEM is solid and does not collapse.Once the knot is of utmost importance to make sure it is well made and has no error in the preparation, this should be visually and only with practice and repetition of the knot, we recommend using this knot spaces checked prior to putting it into practice in a real scenario that could endanger your physical safety. OBSERVATIONS ON RAPPELOnce properly installed the knot we must take into account the following observations:- As extra insurance you can install a hook on the last loop. (In order not to collapse the node fails over to pull the line of recovery) - Perform the decline rectilinearly and uniformly. (To avoid friction on the rope as we descend in single rope) - Keep the tension on the rappel line to steady the knot. (Although it does not undo the knot, the knot is important to continue to work well) - Do not pull the retrieval line as we descend. (It is difficult to collapse the knot when you have tension on the rappel line, but not impossible) RECOVERY OF THE ROPE The recovery of the rope with the knot CEM is quite simple because we just have to pull the retrieval line. In case that when we do not have to retrieve it the knot will be easy to identify the safe release of the five that has the knot through the contact with the rope (It's very notorious secure the release of each).The steps are sequential release and directly dependent on the recovery line.In tests at EMF knot in a controlled environment have been shown to load on the rappel line, you can try to collapse the node and even having released the first safe, the system remains completely collapse ... (This scenario was conducted in 2007 by EMC / Guns in Mexico Association BC). NOTES TO RECOVER Once the rappel we take into account the following observations to take back the string:- Release the tension on the rappel line. (To avoid counterbalance and tighten the knot on the memento to recover) - Pull the line evenly recovery. (The time to be pulling the rope will feel the release of insurance) - Take into account that the string section that will be rolled rope. (We leave the two parallel lines and without obstacles between them to make the rebate) - Keep away from likely spot where you can drop the rope (Regardless of the length of our rope, we avoid the shock of it) OVERVIEW OF THE KNOT It is important before using any retrieval system, we have the dedication to learn how to make it, install it and retrieve it in a controlled environment in order to carry it out abroad. The knot EMC has some general aspects that must be taken into account to identify when well done or which follow:- "Cotes twins" (Part fundamental essence of CEM knot, are made with the rappel line "A") - "The Lock" (Section of insurance that prevents the collapse of the "B") - Identification of the lines (We identify the rappel line "C" recovery line "D") - Additional Security (Carabiner prevents the collapse of the knot, the last to fall to remove "E") KNOT STRENGTH CEM Extract from email I sent William "Sonny" Lawrence with the results of the dynamometer endurance test that was performed to knot the EMC in May 2007. "Manuel is impressive, I have the intention of using it, Jason Martinez, Paul Stovall and me, we test the Knot CEM. Using a rope EasyBend 9mm PMI. The rope was suspended in the air from the branch of a tree, and was loaded with a weight of 0.778kN (175.0 pounds = 79.3 kg) The knot was tied to a large pear-shaped maillon, the system was strained as if a person was in line rappel line while the recovery was slowly strained in the order of steps for the release of EMC Knot, the first insurance freed 0,815 kN (183.2 pounds = 83.0 kg), the second was released less safe of that value and was not registered on the machine, the safe third was released to 0.75 kN (168.6 pounds = 76.4 kg), the safe room was released at 1.25 kN (281.0 pounds = 127.4 kg), the fifth insurance is released to 1.28 kN (287.7 pounds = 130.4 kg) subsequently left the anchor rope dropping the weight. " William "Sonny" Lawrence ACA member in California, USA canyonear@gmail.comCREDITSThis document is based on: THE KNOT CEM. The Mexican recoverable anchor. . PDF.
Apples and oranges....Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
If I use a hook the height of the rap makes liitle difference to me. I have done several 200' raps from a hook.... but normally a hook is not the simpliest method, and I nearly always choose the simpliest method when presented with different options.
But if you want to carry this out to its conclusion..... I would not do a 40' rap from a hook that I would not do at 200'. Ditto macreme, sandtrap, fiddlestick, ect.... but some folks will, and I fail to understand their reasoning.
:cool2:
It comes down to duration, especially when using ghosting techniques. The shorter amount of time spent on rappel, equals less chance of anchor failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
In the case of a macrame, over loading the first toggle makes release more difficult. Once the first is released--all else comes, relatively easily.
So, while in a perfect world, you being the silkiest/smoothest rappeler, then your comparison holds water.
In a canyon environment, with wet, sandy, new, old,big, little,etc. ropes, the smoothness required is sometimes hard to find. Certain releasables, work better than others when duty cycled. Hence the preference based off footage.
So you are saying an anchor is safe at 40' and not at 200' because you spend less time on the anchor?
Honestly.... if the extra 10 seconds is the difference between a good anchor and a bad anchor you are cutting it a little too close for my comfort... YMMV....
Time
Duty Cycles
Smoothness(jerky moves/sudden stops)
Rope Friction/bends on rock
Lots to evaluate, when choosing to not leave a trace of passage.
The Fiddlestick has mainly been used by those on the cutting edge of the sport and/or those doing exploratory canyons, and those wishing to 'ghost' canyons. It has been in use for only a couple of years by very few people. It has not been around long enough or used widely enough, by mainstream canyoneers, to develop a tradition or a body of statistics.
Sonny Lawrence did some testing. The results can be found in this thread. The start of statistical evidence is gathered along with warnings.
We have the nod from expert canyoneer Oldno; and, Tom is a fan, although the fiddlestick may have played a part in his accident.
Tom also listed, in this thread, a variety of reasons one might use a fiddlestick instead of some other type of anchor.
All have said this is one of many tools for the toolbox. It isn't for everyday use. If you do not use a fiddlestick you are no less a canyoneer than those who do. Most of us can quickly, easily, safely descend canyons for decades without ever using a fiddlestick.
To quote Tom from the Inferno thread:
All-ghosting is kind of silly once a canyon is opened to the public... Well-placed webbing anchors are probably better for published canyons than ghosting in keeping the canyons tidy.
I hope... webbing anchors... are neat and tidy, and placed for minimum rope grooves. People CAN also use a fiddlestick to eliminate the need of pulling the ropes through, thus minimizing grooves.
There are probably some instances where a fiddlestick used to minimize rope grooves is practical, but I believe it is a rare instance. Proper anchor setup used by most canyoneers can minimize rope grooves without hauling extra gear or adding risk to a rappel.
I see a potential problem with say half the community using a fiddlestick in a popular canyon, setting the webbing and ring short because they are using a fiddlestick then the other half of canyoneers using the same anchor in a traditional manner and causing rope grooves because the anchor is not set for a proper pull.
I think fiddlesticks are awesome. Seeing all the different ways to saddle that horse has been educational and intriguing. Let's not lose sight of the fact that fiddlesticks are sometimes anchors used in very specific circumstances.
Just my 2 cents.
Penny
Excellent summary, Ms. Centavo...Quote:
Originally Posted by penmartens
Nope... no tangible part in the accident, other than be present as a release mechanism for the WaterTrap. It did not pre-release.
Historically, the first use of the Fiddlestick as March 2011, Marinus Arch trip, using part of Ram's ski pole as the stick.
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...sh-march-2011/
Over the next two months, the idea was explored and moved forward. Suggesting the use of the Stone Knot was a big breakthrough, then using the UPWARD rather than Downward Stone required ANOTHER trip. Drue came up with the name; nuances developed. Brendan produced some fiberglass ones in the fall... the rest is history.
Tom
For me there is another reason to learn ghosting techniques. I periodically suffer from the "what ifs." What if I am in the middle of a canyon, the storm is upon me, bears above and snakes all around AND I somehow loose part of my rope preventing me from doing the typical canyoneering pulldown? What do I do? One option, someday, may be to set up a macrame or CEM or fiddlestick, etc. But that will only work if I am proficient at building those anchors. So, I practice when I don't need them; in my tree in the backyard or often while on belay from a second rope attached to a standard anchor.
There is a mental freedom that comes when I develop the ability to solve physical problems such as referred to above.
:haha::lol8::haha::lol8:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
[QUOTE=sonnylawrence;501908]Attachment 55532CEM stand for "Canyones En Mexico" (forgive my spelling). [SIZE=1]It is a complex hitch using sheep shank style. Some people have simplified it by not tying the backup and instead using three sheep shanks. Below is a copy of the description.
CEM Knot The Mexican recoverable anchor, by ChanockThis document I made with the intent to disclose more technical and detailed features and proper preparation of the knot CEM, as for many who have had the opportunity to see the field application of the knot seems to be too many steps and very complex but is relatively simple and easy to learn to do without errors ... Within this document you will find the application of the lump in one of the most common scenarios in the world of adventure and sports verticals: Pin to a tree for a rappel rope and then recover easily without leaving your computer or use a extra material than our rope.The behavior of this node varies by the characteristics of the string to be used either by diameter, be dynamic or static even in the same condition as found (wet abarrada, dirty or dry) and we should consider these factors when when applying the knot. This type of harnesses recoverable are referred to as "techniques of fortune", and that is why I invite you to be installed and used by the responsible member of the group, you know and have full experience in the installation of the knot and being used only for the last to do the rappel.I invite you to meet, learn and use ...CONTENT1. Background of the knot CEM 2. Development of EMC knot 3. Observations on rappel 4. Recovery of the rope5. Observations on the back 6. Overview of the knot 7. CEM knot strength CreditsWARNING: It would be unwise to descend a canyon only interpreting the data contained in this document and inexperienced previa.ca
Wonder if I can get an app. that'll process all factors into anchor building analysis and spit out which choice is on the edge of "sketchiest" that may be used? Important that all factors are considered.....even unforseen factors? Even unknown factors. It'll have to be a pretty "smartphone" and wiseapp to boot!
Wonder if the PVC, Carbon Fiber, Wood Dowells, Freezer Coil Cleaner Stick Thingys, Etc, are CE, UIAA, batch tested, grade 5 or otherwise proved to have latitudinal integrity? It's one thing bustin your knuckles cleanin' the freezer or a hiking pole that splinters or a wood dowell that snaps whilst hanging a jacket,; but 40-smorty hurts a bunch more!
Bo, you would still need service - good luck with that!
I agree. The more skills I practice and am proficient at the more likely I am to resolve the many unforeseen situations that come up. I am more confident knowing how to set up and use several different anchors.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnylawrence
Some "what ifs" on my list-- spiders, water in winter, dead cows in potholes,...
there is a pdf (with photos) at the top of the message. i've edited the post to separate it from the text so it's clearer. is that what you're sarcastically looking for?Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
A paragraph or two methinks...Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan
Ha ha.
With regard to knowing and/or practicing a bunch of different techniques.... I'm probably better off with a fairly small toolbox. I just don't remember too many different things all that well. And, in the heat of battle, I want what I am using to be bomber.
There has to be a punch line to the joke, "four canyoneers get to an anchor in a canyon....".
I think I have above average problem solving skills. And, I do appreciate seeing and reading about different techniques. The ones that are particularly frightening are the ones that are "releasable" type rappel scenarios. Some of these seem lilke a good idear on paper, or, in a back yard, but, have shown to be fatal in real world applications.
You accidently deploy that pull cord, however you do, and, dislodge that fiddlestick...well, that'd be bad. Maybe not fatal in short drops...but...
At some point, for regular canyons, exploratory, etc, you have to decide what goes in your pack that will be useful on a trip. A fiddlestick to me makes a lot less sense than an emergency drill kit, a spare rope, or, fifty feet of thin cord/webbing for anchor material.
Anyhoo, YMMV, IMHO, DILLIGAF...ha ha...
You are hardly playing fair.... now you are just resorting to plain ol' commonsense.... a stance such as that has little value in a discussion on a Mickey Mouse contraption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
:facepalm1: