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Great rope Brian. The Bluewater Canyonline is basically the same as the Sterling Canyontech. Burly stuff indeed. When these fancy schmancy ropes came on the market, I wasn't hugely interested due to cost. But their lives are so much longer, and the mental peace of mind when you look up and see that skinny rope chafing on an edge is worth a lot. Plus it seems technora ropes are getting downright reasonable in price, as cheap as the polys I was buying just last year.
Doug
Reply from Sterling regarding the C-IV's polypro core melting...
---------------------
Doug,
Here is some additional information from our rope engineer, Jim Ewing.
We don't have any, more technical, information than what you've already provided. I can add, however, that in order for a hot rappel device to cause damage to the polypropylene core the device would have to remain in contact with the specific spot for several seconds all while maintaining the melting point temperature. In other words, there has to be focused heat and pressure in order to heat up the Technora sheath to the point where it will reach a sufficient temperature to affect the core.
Basically, you would have to try pretty hard to heat the rope up to the point where it effected the core.
Moral of the story, don't lock off on the last rap in Heaps. :crazy:Quote:
Originally Posted by dsr70
Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3
100 ft. 3.85 lb
200 ft. 7.7 lb $160
300 ft. 11.55 $240
Sterling C-IV 9
100 ft. 3.2 lb
200 ft 6.4 lb $241
300 ft 9.6 lb $357
Imlay Canyonero 9.2
100 ft 4.2 lb
200 ft 8.4 lb $175
300 ft 12.6 lb $262
BW Canyonator 9.2
110 ft.
220 ft 9.16 lb $180
330 ft. 13.8 lb $270
___________
Data was pulled off web sites/stores. Canyons and Crags (RC) lists lengths not in 100/200/300, but in 110, 220. In my view some/many humans are brand oriented or connected. Some people will ONLY use BW ropes, or one that RC suggests or one that a WMC Canyon Director suggests (BW). Some that have used dynamic Sterling lines will try Sterling Canyon ropes. Those that know of or are connected with TJ/Imlay lines will use and try his ropes. Years back I got to try and report on Sterlings newest and first 9m canyon rope. Since then I've NOT kept up with all the lines. Above, I list four fairly popular cyn ropes, 8 & 9 m.
Sterling C-IV 9. Weight, feel and slide of the rope acts like an 8. Personally I like the light weight; seems sturdy enough; I've only slid on others lines though.
Canyon Fire 8.3 I have a 200 and two 120's and have used them extenisvely in wet and dry canyons. To date the ropes have never faltered and have a semi stiff feel.
Canyonero 9.2 I used one in Englestead last season and used another one in Behunin/Spry. Nice line to single strand on via big drops. Beefy strong A-1 rope.
Canyonator 9.2. I have NOT used the rope. Know many people connected to RC that have used and enjoy this line.
Best rope out there? The one that weighs next to nothing when I/we carry it - for hours. And the one that is sturdy, strong and risk free when rapping single strand.
Or, I'd rather carry a lite 8m rope and rap on a (heavier) sturdier 9m line. (rapping on the 8.3 Cyn Fire is 'no problem and no risk' in my view).
Cost, access/availability/shipping is another factor to some. Often, discounts exist. I still have old BW 8m canyon pro ropes. They are light but falter often - I'll never buy them again. When the 8.3 cyn fire came out it basically displaced all 8-9mm ropes in my view, and that's what I use most of the time - some times mixing a 9m rope for some ventures. Amazes me that some/so many raise their 9mm lines high above their head and pronounce this is the king/the best. But then when their ropes are wet and someone gets to carry the 'pig' as I call it, the smiles turn to frowns, OR, they always let someone else carry the rope.(this on hour long ventures). On short trips I see little problem or stress in 9m lines. Also interesting - the mind set - there are many viable options in canyon ropes, OR there is only or two ropes/brands I would use. And then the newbies that 'stress' and buy a 9m line and then for the first time pack it uphill for 2-3 hrs and then whine (with rope bag and line) at the 9-10 lbs. Some have no problem with this, I know, some folk are tough and will pack anything. But then there is the factor re enjoying the venture too & silly safety, oh my. Ropes and the personalities that push them - there are some strong opinions out there. The best rope, the best canyon, the best partner, the best president? The debate rolls on.
https://www.google.com/fusiontables/...id=S445086Rsk7
Here is a google doc I made out of boredom, I hope the link works. It includes caving rope as well as canyoneering rope. Not all brands/models are included, just my favorites.
Good effort, though it looks like your taste is on the fat side... :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by ndonaldj
It would be more useful if your units were consistent... for Canyon Fire, the weight is 3.85; for C'yero 4.2. Elongation on C'yero is same as C Fire 1.2%.
Tom :moses:
This is because it includes ropes I use for caving as well.Quote:
Good effort, though it looks like your taste is on the fat side...
I just hadn't taken the time to convert the weight measurements on your ropes yet.. But thank you for doing it for me :mrgreen:Quote:
It would be more useful if your units were consistent..
Nice initial efffort. Note that in my earlier post, I listed the reported 100 ft. weight of the two Imlay ropes. I'd add the BW Canyon DS 9mm line to the list. Very popular rope. Weight and measuremuent wise though, it's closer to an 8.5 than a 9. PMI Sport Static lines are actually closer to 8.3-5. Premier line when one sets ropes and ascends. You also don't list the fairly popular and very expensive 8mm BW Canyon Pro and DS lines.
It's your list though; when I saw it my eye wanted to separate, canyon from caving and climbing lines, and to break out the 8, 9, 10 & 11 (or whatever lines). Those learning about ropes - that wish to get into or expand canyoneering for example - may get a blurred view re what lines to follow/buy/use.
For example: Canyon lines; 8-8.5mm A, B, C, D...; 9-9.5mm A, B, C, D..... Caving Ropes..... Climbing Ropes......and then possibly an asteritck on some ropes - can be used in both caving and canyoneering. (or you do your list as you wish, and others can build their own bridge.)
Personally, I think it's worthwhile having an open discussion re ropes. Long ago on the ACA site, the sacred cow of BW lines, disallowed any reasonable discussion of any other ropes. Cancord/Imlay, Sterling, PMI, all off the radar. Yikes, if one was a canyon leader (*most cyn leaders anyway) one couldn't discuss, own or use anything other than a sanctioned BW line; and long ago, one could only use a figure 8. Folk should know that some/many of the marketed 9mm lines are actually weight/measurement/hand wise, closer to 8 or 8.3 or 8.5. They should also know the weight of ropes, AND they should pay careful attention to what happens when these lines get wet. Nylon, Poly, sheaths stability.....and ropes have a personality and nuance. The PMI sport static is nylon, but the sheath is so tight that the water does not quickly permeate. Still the rope in my view is not a general canyon line; But it's a dream when ascending.
Heck, if I were to start all over, I'd go with the canyon fire and probably go not much further. In dry and wet canyons it's A-1. But I know some don't like or favor the line and stay with the BW brand. But then of course I've used Sterling ropes; their new canyon lines are nice in my view. ( many experienced canyoneers that search out and discover new canyons, only carry and use 8mm (8-8.5) lines. They trust the ropes, and the weight and packaging of the rope is important; carrying a lighter rope is more efficient; and in most peoples view, it's plenty safe). But then always, an exception to the rule - sometimes they/we carry 9mm ropes, for this or that venture or drop.
Last week I had a discussion with a neighbor re Stihl and Husky chain saws - we came to little agreement. Minutes later another neighbor came over and shifted the talk to this or that presidential candidate. Quickly we had 3 views. When some, in a martinet manner, try to slam down this or that BW rope on me or others, I often wonder, what happened to the corridor of multiple views? Same with rap devices. The Totem/another sacred cow? (or a lesson in how to twist ropes)
If there are other viable 8- 8.5 canyon ropes out there, I'd enjoy hearing and learning about them. (right now, it's basically Imlay, BW and Sterling poly ropes). The best? A mirage or illusion I think. A better canyon rope though? That's a more reasonable or relevant query. And is it OK to have a diversity of likes; or should we just march to the beat of A, B or C drummer?
I will continue adding ropes to the list as I learn about them I suppose. Speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion on the Bluewater Canyon Pro DS? I had never heard of it but the specs are impressive, a Technora and Polyester sheath over a Dynema core! It sounds like its built like a tank. My only concern would be sheath slippage from the Dynema core.
Thank you for your input, here is an updated table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...S1CN3ctQmtEcVE
I didn't add a section for the sport of which each rope is used because that is mostly up to personal preference. And I separated them by diameter, and by units of measurement because I used the manufacturers units. I also didn't include climbing ropes because the world of dynamic is much bigger than static, there would just be way too many to add.
I have used my 8mm BW Pro DS for about a year now. As a matter of fact, it has been my primary rope. Its been used in the Alps, Death Valley, Sierras and Zion. Still looks great however I would like to comment a bit more on the core slippage. After about a month of use, the sheath became longer then the core by about 9" on a 200' rope. I have not noticed any further slippage, and just recently cut of 9" of loose sheath and tapped it (melting doesn't work).Quote:
Originally Posted by ndonaldj
How do YOU finish the end and does it work well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegabond
Tom
Vag, I'm not entirely happy with my taping of technora ends. I considered trying a torch for kicks, but probably the technora would still just kind of get crusty and not melt, as well as compromise a few feet of core near the end. Therefore, methinks a tough shrink wrap of some kind, like that used at the factory for technora ropes, would be best?
I've used super glue with some success on Kevlar.
I'd be curious to know what Sterling (or any rope manuf.) would recommend.
Anyone know?
Could something like a sailmaker's whipping work to finish the ends? I know it can be used on kernmantle ropes, but have never tested it. Here is an example:
http://www.animatedknots.com/sailmakers/index.php
Or maybe something like this, if you're feeling ambitious:
http://www.treeworld.info/f15/new-en...ice-10362.html
I've used some of this stuff on technora ropes and it's held up pretty good. I always seem to pop the heat shrink off rapping off the end of the rope in wet canyons.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg
Before cutting a technora sheathed rope--install ADHESIVE heat shrink tube to the rope, then cut in the middle of the tube.
I have a long length of BW Canyon Pro DS, very nice rope.(and costly)
I coat the last inch with Mcnett seam grip. While it's still wet, I put a piece of heat-shrink tubing on it. Super solid.
The splice on that tree rope would be impossible on a canyon rope. The sheath is woven way too tightly.
Awesome price on an awesome rope. I'd scoop up a few hundred feet. http://www.nwbackpack.com/products/sterling_canyon_c-iv.php
I love my C-IV. After a few uses it is holding up very well. It is smooth and feels great in you hands. It's gotten better with each use. It's not stiff and obnoxious like some of the polyester ropes but not so soft that it's a tangled, mushy mess either. The weight is awesome too. I have a 300' ICG canyon fire and like it ok. Good for long raps. I'd be curious to get a shorter piece of it for shorter raps to compare to my C-IV. So far, my sterling seems to be more durable. They are 6's when it comes to weight, wet or dry. The sterling dries significantly faster as well. It is more supple and goes into a rope bag with much less fuss.
Pelican ropeworks makes an 8mm technora cord with a polyester core that has an MBS of 6100lbs. Sheath heavy and very durable. I use it as vt cord for tree work and would be interested to use it as a short back up rope in canyons. It can be had online for about $.90/ft
Re BW Canyon Pro DS (Dual Sheath). Rope lists at Backcontry.com for $362.95 at 200 ft. I know folk that got the line the first year it came out for around $300. Those working in retail shops would do better. The line is stiffer than the Canyon Pro and generally does not scuff up as much as the canyon pro. But the big caveat for this line and the Canyon Pro (aside from the cost) is the sheath slippage, particularly when folk (heavy lads) are rapping single strand. I've seen brand new DS ropes come loose, sheath wise; the slippage was from 4-6 inches, or up to a foot. In Canyon Pro, in wet canyons, the slippage often occured on the ends of the line (sometimes elsewhere); with the DS I saw it in near middle sections of the rope. Generally it's a nice, versatile rope. I know some that say they have never had a problem with the line, and scoff when I suggest otherwise.
By way of comparison, I've never seen sheath slippage on PMI Sport Static, on any of the BW 9mm ropes and not on the Imlay Canyon fire or the Imlay 9mm lines. Ditto re the Sterling 9m ropes. And the cost? The new Sterling 8m line can be found on sale for around $200; and the Canyon Fire for less than that (at 200 ft.). Weight wise the Sterling just about matches the DS with the Canyon Fire a tad heavier. It's just money though and those with BW in their blood, can infuse their quiver with as many BW lines as they wish. (that happened to me a decade ago when BW canyon lines came out; but the luster faded;, Cancord Hercules/Imlay appeared and more recently the Canyon Fire.) Had I the money, would I put it (the DS) in my quiver? Probably not. I still recognize though that opinions vary and exeriences differ. I know some that have used Canyon Pro and Canyon Pro DS and claim they have NEVER had a problem. I salute you, but on my side I no longer pledge allegiance to those pricey/dicey ropes. (even though I still own and sometimes use, some of the canyon pro)
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Droppings
Really? The ropes these guys are recommending cost as much or more than dynamic ropes. I've seen cheaper 60 meter dynamic ropes for as little as $100
"Sheath-heavy" has a specific meaning, and I could find no evidence that this is a sheath-heavy rope. Please retract your claim - it is bogus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
Tom :moses:
Many ropes have sheath slippage problems, including my Canyon Fire and Canyonero, at times. And the Canyon Pro and DS at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by reflection
As delivered all of these ropes are not 100% tight, sheath to core. So if you take em out of the bag and take your Bubba-esque friends out and all slide down the rope in one direction, you are going to induce a lot of sheath slippage. If you are near an end, the slippage will go off one end. If you end near the middle, then you will have a pile of extra sheath just past where everyone stopped rappelling.
The rope being wet seems to make this worse, sometimes MUCH worse. Using an ATC rather than a Pirana tends to make it worse. In odd-numbered months, it tends to be worse. Within a few days of the full moon - much worse! (OK - those last two - :crazy:)
To avoid this, you CAN soak the rope in water and let it dry a couple times before you use it. This will also shrink the length some. I don't do this personally, but I recommend it, especially if you expect to use the rope the first few times in dry canyons, or your canyoneering buddies go by "Bubba".
Canyon Fire x 200 feet => $ 160.00
I have used the BW Canyon Pro about 180 days while guiding in the last 5 years, and it is a nice rope. But when I go out on my own, yes I use my own ropes. Yes, because I like them, and I don't want to give the opportunity for a photo of Tom rapping on BW rope to pop up on the Interwebs! :haha:
Ropes also shrink in length, but it is really hard to put a number to that, as it varies widely with the details of use. We might try to establish a protocol for that and run some tests, this summer.
Tom :moses:
Just to be clear, your "Really?" is limited to the discussion of price, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by rrv
REI.com cheapest New England 10.2 x 60m = $ 144.00
Sierra Trading Post: Tendon 10.4 x 60m = $ 150.00
Summit Hut.com: Mammut Supernova 10mmx60m = $ 160.00
So I will claim equal exaggeration:
A. No, a dynamic 60m climbing rope does not cost twice what canyoneering rope does; and
B. While on-sale dynamic 60m climbing ropes may occasionally be on sale for only a hundred bucks, the normal SALE price would be more like $ 150.00
Let's call it a draw!
Tom
No. It's not. I own the evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
That's like me interrupting you every three seconds and saying "prove it....show me.... Where does it say that ?" And so on....
Although you may not have found anything that says it is in fact "sheath heavy", doesn't mean it isn't. If by sheath heavy you mean that more than half of the rope's fibers are found in its sheath, this rope fits that definition. I own some of it and if you were to examine a cross section of this rope you'd see what I mean.
Hmmm. Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
What's the ratio?
Easiest way to measure is to cut some length, pull the core out of the sheath and weigh the two parts. Gotta have enough material to produce good results on your scale.
I'm still saying "prove it!", in case you haven't figured it out. :crazy:
Tom :naughty:
Yes, I was referring to price and his statement that you could buy 2 static ropes for the price of one dynamic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
If by a draw, you mean that static and dynamic ropes are basically the same price, then yes, I agree.
I separated the sheath and core fibers. More in the sheath than in the core volume wise. I'd call it 55/45. There are obviously different ways to measure, volume, weight, tensile strength, this could vary simply by the materials used in the respective parts of the ropeQuote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Again, interesting... I cannot find a Technora sheath / Polyester core on their website - can you direct me to the product you are suggesting? I am genuinely interested in this item.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
You could weigh it, but as you suggest that is not the most natural way to consider the "amount of material". Weighing it and dividing by density would tell you the volume, if you want to go to that much trouble.
(Technora: 1.39 g/cc - http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...aa93229&ckck=1 ;
Polyester: 1.38 g/cc - http://gestis-en.itrust.de/nxt/gateway.dll/gestis_en/530566.xml?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0 )
So Technora and Polyester have the same density, thus a weight comparison also gives a volume comparison.
Tom
I'll find it for you. I had trouble finding it on their website too.
I had no idea that technora and polyester were so similar. But you see the point I was trying to make, right?
The only weakness I can find in the rope is that the sheath is not woven as tightly as other canyon specific ropes.
Found it under new products... http://www.pelicanrope.com/low-angle...cue-ropes.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
As Technora Prusik line... A cord for Prusik would be made soft to have more grip, might not be suitable for rappelling. I asked for a quote, might get a sample to look at.
I'm unsure how this makes your point, but I am also not very clear on what point you were trying to provide evidence for.
As far as sheath-heavy - an 8mm rope with a polyester core and a 6000 lb rating would have a core 1/5th larger than my Canyonero... unless the sheath is so amazingly strong that the sheath is way stronger than the core (which very well could be true in this case) so that the rating comes off the sheath (which is counter to the way most static ropes function).
Also, to note, the weight is 40.2 grams per meter, which is considerably less than my 8mm polyester (50 grams per meter) and even less than the Canyon Pro (42 g/m) - so if it is really an 8mm in size, then they are not packing it very tight!
Tom
http://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-bffd-263e.jpg
I don't know that I ever really tried to make specific point, I just mentioned this cord as a curiosity. Something to fiddle with. You're the one who has belabored and knit picked it.
P.s. Here is a pick of the sheath and core fibers on a fairly accurate, tunable balance scale. To zero it, you get an average difference of about .3 grams /inch. After re-zeroing the scale and remeasuring several times. The sheath fibers are heavier every time, on both sides of the scale. That's a weight difference of almost 12g/m. 40g/m is what you said right? That's 65% in the sheath if I did my math right. That's pretty "sheath heavy"
"sheath heavy"Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Wouldn't that also be the way your own designs of ropes function?
How does the design of your own ropes explain the paltry 3600lb MBS of your canyon fire rope?
Pictures next to my C-IV
http://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-c634-51f9.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-c666-e60c.jpg
It's on sale from my tree supply folks
http://www.wesspur.com/Prusiks/bulk-prusik-cord.html. It's the technora cord that's $.84/ft
If they'd make it in a 2 end per carrier braid at a higher braiding tension we'd have one heck of a canyon line, especially at that price. That, I think we could agree on.
Nope. And Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
"Wouldn't that also be the way your own designs of ropes function?"
Nope.
When you put a static rope on the testing machine, it loads up and extends, and then the core breaks; and then it loads up again, extends further and the sheath breaks. The core fibers are straight, so those are the ones that take the load first. The sheath fibers are criss-crossed at a 45 degree angle (roughly, at rest) so before they can be really loaded, they have to align straight.
For a standard 50-50 static rope, once you align the sheath fibers by pulling them straight, you find your bundle of fibers is 1.4* longer than it started, and therefore 1/1.4 * (71 %) of the size (diameter) of the core, so it would not be as strong.
Ah, but if the inside was Polyester and the outside was Technora, you change the equation substantially because the Technora, when new, is 3X as strong as the Polyester. However, we also need to be concerned about how the criss crossing interacts, so it is hard to say what the result it, but it is entirely possible for the outside braid to be stronger than the inside core.
My ropes do not work that way - the core carries the strength.
And even if they did, I am not sure I would feel good claiming a strength based on the sheath, because the sheath becomes worn. In a kernmantle rope, there is the assumption that the sheath (mantle) takes the wear while the core (kern) retains its strength. If you are relying on the mantle for strength, then what is the strength after it has been rappelled on? (Answer: uncertain, and unlikely to be the full rated strength).
"How does the design of your own ropes explain the paltry 3600lb MBS of your canyon fire rope?"
You making stuff up?
Not sure where you got the figure you quote, but it is inaccurate.
http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php
The current rating is 4100 lbs. The rating used to be 3900 lbs (for the 8mm and the Canyon Fire), but after collecting several years of data, it became clear that the data set supported a rating of 4100 lbs. (It is not uncommon for products to come onto the market with one rating and then have the data set support a higher rating down the road. When setting an initial rating, the engineer would want to build in some "just in case" headroom, just in case some variable in manufacture creeps in that causes a loss of strength.)
And it is not MBS or Mean Breaking Strength, it is a 3-sigma rating. MBS is kind of a poor-man's rating; a rating without statistics behind it tells you very little about the actual strength of what you hold in your hand. I want both a respectable Mean breaking strength and a low sigma (variance). A low variance tends to indicate that the manufacturing processes are well-understood and well-controlled. In batch testing, you really want a low sigma, because outliers indicate something is not right.
" ...explain the paltry 3600lb MBS of your... "
You, sir, are a scoundrel. How dare you both lie about my rope, and also insult it by calling it 'paltry'. Defamation! (Mock :angryfire: Outrage)! Pistols at Dawn! :duel: Okay, Sabers at Sunset!
But enough of that.
I re-assert my original contention. You said this stuff is sheath-heavy rope. It is not. I concede that it is sheath-heavy - in fact, it is very, VERY sheath heavy, practically braid. But it is not ROPE. It is purpose-specific Prusik line. That is not rope. Rappelling on this stuff is not what the manufacturer intended, and would have very unpredictable results, and is likely quite dangerous. It is not rope.
Tom :moses:
Haha! I love watching the linear thinking engineering types get all up in arms and geek out on this stuff, spitting out terminology and numbers. Its kinda fun to needle you along,Tom.
Pretty sure the card that is packaged with your canyon fire rope said something about a minimum breaking strength of 3600lb. I could be wrong, in which case I would retract my statement.
I'm aware of how different rope designs work. Even in my short years I have an extensive background of rock climbing, high angle rescue with ski patrol and SAR, technical rescue with the fire department, and tree work. I've been dangling from the ends of ropes since I was old enough to walk, have made a living with them, and literally saved lives with them.
Once again I merely mentioned this cord, as it were, as a curiosity. I'm not rappelling on it any time soon. I have several real canyoneering ropes, even one of yours. Which I will continue to use.
Or maybe I'll go to the hardware store to by some polypro diamond braid for all my life safety applications, I heard it floats....
Current hangtag says 3900 lbsF. 3900 is not the same as 3600. That's some linear thinking, right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
Glad to provide entertainment... :crazy:
Harbor Freight. Best Ropes EVER!
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...d-The-Incident
Tom :moses:
I'll have to find what rope they were using so I can get one for myself....sounds fast!
What was the point of that post? I use a helmet, I rap on purpose built ropes, I carry a FA kit and warm clothes, I send the most competent rappeller down first with an auto block and use a bottom belay for everyone else. Pleas don't paint me like I don't have a clue. You've had to twist this whole discussion into a scenario in which you can be right about something. I didn't set out to prove anything but you apparently felt threatened by my comment. The self proclaimed guru and overseer of all things canyoneering and lord over all Zion, I am not worthy!
Please don't assume that I would be the type to do something that foolish. You must have missed the part where I told you that I've used ropes professionally for over 6 years in a variety of different applications. Get over yourself.
Too serious, oh lad of the sandals... you suggested a rope from a suspect source, I riffed off your suggestion. That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy
This horse dead yet? :deadhorse:
Tom
http://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-bffd-263e.jpg
I guess I am the idiot. I thought these scales were only useful for measuring weed (for medicinal purposes of course (we have a lot of disabled 24 year olds in California)).
You may notice that my scale is dusty, been a while since I used it...