:2thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
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:2thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
Last time down Heaps I uses a gri gri and it worked great. Straight down and very controlled. I had an older version of the gri gri so i added a prusic for safety.
Interesting... I've read several threads on climbing forums that claim a gri gri will glaze your rope on a long rappel because it gets so hot. Did your gri gri do anything to your rope on the long rap out of Heaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishkumen
Bob
No, it was fine...I went down slow and it didn't seem to get nearly as hot as my Pirana does. Another guy went down before me and used a Gri Gri as well. It was a 9mm static rope. I think I would only use a Gri Gri on a free repel though.
I have been going back through old posts to read more input on different experiences relating to Canyoneering / Rappelling. I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this thread, and I think @Slot Machine's profile picture is fantastic!
I also had a heck of a good time learning from this thread. :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscGo
Thanks for the kind words DiscGo!! :2thumbs: :gents:
My wife & I weigh in around 130 - 140 lbs. (just to be clear, she's the lighter one) and carry packs about 15 - 20 lbs. If we use a piranha on a 300 ft rap with a biner on the leg loop for extra friction and the piranha set at maximum friction, do you think that would work & be safe? Would plan on an autoblock as well. Assume a single strand 9 mm rope & the rappel never goes quite free. What about rope twist? Opinions anyone? Tom - I know you seem to use piranha's a lot or did.
With the setup mentioned above you will have wwwaaaayyyyy too much friction.
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Ya, what Ice said.Quote:
Originally Posted by peakbaggers
At the top of a 300 footer the weight of the rope acts like a fireman belay. The rope won't simply feed through your device when you weight the rope. You will have to force feed the rope through your device for the first 50 feet or so. Having minimal friction at the top will make the process less exhausting.
There are 3 friction settings on a Piranha, lets call them 0, 1 and 2. 0 being the lowest.
At the top of a 300 footer, with a 9 mil rope, you will want to use a 0 setting. I've found the 0 setting to be adequate on most rappels that are not free hanging. (I weigh 170 lbs.) If you are really nervous about it, use a 1 setting, it will be a lot more work, but that is the only downside.
On rappel you will get down about 150 feet and notice your friction decreasing considerably. Clip into your leg loop. Go a little further. Complete the z-rig.
Don't use an autoblock. This is not like me telling you that a helmet is optional. Completing a z-rig looks easy on paper, but when you are on the rope it takes some effort. No need to make the process more complex with an autoblock.
I don't think rope twistage is a big deal unless you are free hanging.
Also, if you practice all this stuff before you go, it makes things so much easier mentally on "game day".
Be safe, good luck! :2thumbs:
Actually it's just the opposite.... rope twisting is not a big deal if the rappel is free hanging because you can set the rope so it is 12" off the ground and the rope will un-twist its self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
On non-free hanging rappels, particularly 300' rappels, rope twist can become a big issue. Especially if several folks on 8's follow one anther and poor rope management skills are use.
YMMV :cool2:
Doesn't the rope twist above you as well, creating a not-so-fun spinning rappel on the way down? This is the "big deal" I was referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Everything else you said make sense. :nod:
Good to know, Shane. Guess I'd rather have wwwaaayyy too much friction than wwwaaayyy too little. Might end up a little squashed with too little! I think Slot has added some good advice. Been debating whether to use ATC or Piranha. I'm comfortable with either but wife likes the Piranha so think it's best to let her use what she's most familiar with on something like Englestead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
The big problem with to much friction is it really wears you out fast feeding rope. I also think its really dangerous because you pay to much attention to feeding rope and not enough attention to using a correct brake hand position. In fact to much friction makes using a proper brake hand all but impossible.
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x2 there is nothing worse then just going over the edge on a big rappel and not being able to move. When you are inching along and bouncing each time you pull up some rope is not a fun experience. On a Pirana using both hooks at your weight will be a long rappel. My wife weighs about 125lbs and she uses one hook on the Englestead rappel and seems to do fine. (8.3 rope) Little slow at top sometimes ask for a belay at bottom. I set my kids in Canyon Mode, if they need a little help I slow them down at the bottom. If you have an experienced fireman belayer set yourself up light and let them help you at the bottom. If you are the first one down I would reccomend one hook with the rope already in your leg biner. Towards the bottom either redirect thru a biner in the main Pirana hole or put the rope over the hook at the top. WARNING when using the top hook make sure you baby sit the rope on the hook like your life depends on it. It has a tendency to jump off the hook and then the excitement will begin. My preference is when using the hook I switch to left hand to change the direction over the hook. doesn't want to jump off as easy. Twisting is a problem if the end is touching the ground. Reset the rope after first guy down so it is about 2 ft off the ground. YMMV. One more item I always wear gloves. Some feel this masked how much friction you really need but when it hits the fan I want some leather between my nice soft skin and that skin eating rope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Mark
Again - great advice everyone. Much appreciated. And Shane, I do agree about the too much friction - can be a real pain so the conclusion is don't use the piranha on maximum setting. Mark's info about what setting he uses for his wife is helpful. Looking forward to this trip.
I have a question. Given the same setup/rope, is there any difference in the amount of friction needed at the bottom of a 300' rappel vs a 200' or 100' rappel? The only difference I see is the additional heat generated on a longer rappel, but does that result in a noticeable difference in friction also?
I understand people want more friction on long rappels, but as noted, it often results in too much friction at the top, & people using setups they're not normally accustomed to using.
A little bit of living room and garage hook rappelling practice with changing your friction settings is priceless once you really need to do it in a canyon. I have hooks all over my garage ceiling that we practice new and different techniques on.
Cool idea. You have a 300' tall garage by any chance:mrgreen:? I'll be right over to practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2065toyota
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfshop
To comfortably do a long rappel, variable friction is needed. Less at the top, add more as you go down. You can simulate a long rap on a short one by (for example) suspending a water bladder on the end of the rope and letting it drain as you descend.
To answer your question above, you generally want more friction at the bottom of a 300' (vs. a 100') rappel because longer raps take more time and so the brake hand(s) are more fatigued, nearing the end.
Not really considered practice if it's 300' tallQuote:
Originally Posted by mfshop
Practice practice practice... but how do you practice the conditions of a 300' rappel?Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
(this method required a 'ground person' in addition to the rappeller)
Take your 300' rope and set up a rappel, of moderate length (say 60'). Then suspend the 'rope on the ground' (say, 240') in a bag on the end of the rope, so it is hanging off the ground and weighting the rope. Even BETTER, have half the remaining rope (120') in one bag and the other half in another (yes, I like to make things complicated), both suspended on the end of the rope.
Phase 1: Rappeller start your rappel. Rappel smoothly the first 1/3 of the rappel (say 20')... the point here is to figure out the friction setting that will work well for the first segment of the rappel - and it might take several tries to figure it out. Perhaps rappelling to the ground until the correct setting is found. For my 190 lbs plus pack, a Pirana on one horn seems to work for a Canyonero 9.2 rope and the Canyon Fire 8.3mm rope.
Phase 2: Rappeller starts rappel with optimal setting for starting the rappel, and raps 20'. Ground person then removes half the suspended weight, and the rappeller makes an adjustment to compensate for the reduced rope-weight. I go with clipping into a large carabiner on my left leg loop (I am right handed), so the rope then crosses my lap. With the rope this way, I can swivel my hips to control the friction - at first, I usually swivel right for less friction, but as it runs smoothly I work my way back to normal sitting position. - for the next third...
Phase 3: For the last part of the rappel, all the 'suspended rope-weight' is dropped to the ground, and the rappeller makes an adjustment for the final part of the rappel. On my Pirana, I clip a thin carabiner into the big eye of the Pirana and clip the rope from the left leg loop into it, making a z-rig. This tends to be very smooth for the last bit.
In the actual situation, the transition between phases will not be that uniform, of course. But it is good to have these two transitions, these two tools available AND, it is important to practice MAKING THE MOVES under combat conditions, as they are not as easy as it sounds.
Is this deliberate and methodical? You bet. Kinda OCD? Yessir! Have I actually done this as a training... well... over the course of many years, all these actions and many others were executed by my friends and I - and this is a distillation of the parts of that extended process that actually worked. So if you want to be well-prepared for this event - try to do something somewhat related to what I suggest.
Or you can just wing it...
Tom :moses: