Thanks Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
that makes perfect sense to me .....:cool2:
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Thanks Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
that makes perfect sense to me .....:cool2:
As the last person down, in this situation, there would be no problem going double strand.
The problems arise when on a trip with a new canyoneer, how to best protect them.
Having options(contingencies) is always good. Leaving the pull side of a system open for potential "help" could be
as/more problematic than anticipated. One sets himself up for many disastrous scenarios if not trained/experienced in these type events.
Upon ascending to victim, what if you unweight him from his strand of rope??? (just something I hope the OP had in mind with leaving this type contingency in place.
Canyoneering is generally a common sense, uncomplicated endeavor. As in this example, I simple firemans belay would have alleviated any heartache and re-acuring nightmares.
It really IS That Simple. Now if the new canyoneer is not competent at rigging their own device each time, the equation changes again.
The facts are--Firemans or Video, the wrong choice was made.
Thanks for sharing your experience dsr:2thumbs:
Rubio is a fun, short, very low flow canyon(generally)
Glad everything turned out OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by deagol
A couple comments about autoblocs.
We use them at ZAC for guiding, and I know ATS uses them too, and teaches them. I NEVER use an autobloc for personal canyoneering (but I am "old school"). When teaching canyoneering classes, I encourage people to wean off the autobloc as soon as possible.
Using an Autobloc, one surmises that it is OK to let go of the rope at any time. After doing this a few times, it can become a habit, one that is hard to lose. On a trip a few years ago, without Autoblocs, a friend of a friend who had mostly used autoblocs let go to block a swing, and thankfully/amazingly got his hand back on the rope while he still could. I am STILL thankful. Therefore, while knowing and having an Autobloc is a good thing, I think people should get away from them as soon as possible, and get into the "NEVER let go of the rope" mode as early in their canyoneering career as possible.
I would also like to point out that Matt did not have an Autobloc on this rappel. An Autobloc is something that works (ie, grabs the rope when someone lets go), and what he had was a not-Autobloc. I have seen many people use a not-Autobloc to make themselves or someone else more comfortable. Presumeably they were under the impression that what they were rigging would work.
Autoblocs are somewhat difficult to rig correctly, and can be quite cantankerous. We have the advantage in guiding in that we use the same ropes day in day out, the same autoblocs, and have extensions available when needed (but they are still cantankerous). When guiding, we teach people how to rig their autobloc at the first rappel, and how to test it to make sure it works (grabs the rope); and during the next couple of raps we hope that various (not-on-rappel) 'problems' will crop up (such as clipping to the gear loop rather than the leg loop) so that we can use these as teaching moments. Of course, we watch them like a hawk, every time. By the end of the day, most clients over the age of 10 will have the autobloc down, and can rig themselves quickly and confidently without supervision (which is there nonetheless).
The point: I encourage folks, when they take their friends out, to NOT "rig their friends up", but to carefully and thoroughly train their friends in how to use the equipment, make sure it is working properly, and make sure that they are using the gear correctly. It takes only a few minutes more, if that, and increases the safety of the group, both that day and into the future. I also think it makes the experience of canyoneering much richer for the friends being "taken".
Tom :moses:
To add to what Tom said, having the last person rap single strand allows someone to (more easily) ascend back up and help that person should they become stranded. As you noted, the contingency anchor cannot be operated for the last person. So, the only reasonable way to help this stuck/unconscious person would be to ascend back up to them. The rescuer can then help them become unstuck, pick them off, or ascend to the top and re-rig for lower.
That said, the last person down will still take out the block and go double when there is the possibility of snagginess on the pull.
Someone mentioned that one has to "let go" of the autobloc in order for it to grab the rope and stop a fall.
I realize this is a significant, known problem for the prusik "above". My experience with an autobloc below is that with any significant speed of rope running through it, the autobloc with grab and stop the fall, no matter how much the rappeller fights it. Although this may be more of a "edjumacted guess", since we do not test these things on a regular basis; but it takes careful management of the Autobloc in order to keep it running down the rope. If your Autobloc does not require careful tending, may I suggest it might be a not-Autobloc.
Tom :moses:
You CAN do a contingency from below, if you really have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
I hope you realize, Canyoncaver, that doing a "regular pickoff" would result in a bad thing. You would need to do the more-complex "pickoff to the victim's strand" maneuver.
Tom :moses:
As far as taking friends go. I got almost all of my current group into canyoneering and never used an autobloc with any of them. I always take them rappeling before I take them to a canyon to make sure they have that part down. In the canyon I always make sure they had a fireman's belay from the bottom. I've had a few lose control before and the belay works fine. I think the autobloc can be tricky to get right and a bigger pain than a help. My opinion. Also, keeps people from getting dependent on it like Tom mentioned. I guess with guiding you might be taking people who have no experience and the autobloc could be useful...
another thought on not using an autoblock for me: it would not allow me to add friction or lock off my rappel device since I need the brake strand "mobile" to be able to do that. In other words, having brake strand attached to my leg loop would not allow me to wrap it around the device for added friction and lock off.
Also, I have noticed in the past when experimenting with leg loop attachments that the stress it puts on the leg loop doesn't seem to align well with the direction the leg loop is assembled. To state this another way, the cord or biner pulling up on the leg loop sort of seems to want to pull the stitching apart where the leg loop is sewn together infront. This would make more sense with a photo, but perhaps others have noticed this as well ?
C'mon, that's low. I got the rope from Home Depot.Quote:
Originally Posted by trackrunner
Attachment 51532
Edit: Shows the incorrect rigging I mentioned in the first post. The 'biner (C) outside the leg loop (A) with the buckle (B) in between.
Caption? Explanation?
Gavin got me into canyoneering, and I agree with him. I've never had a need for an autoblock, even when going down first. You just be careful and take it easy, and when I teach people to rappel, I also make sure they have a fireman belay, and one of the first things I tell them is that they NEVER let go of the rope with their brake hand. For the most part they just look obnoxious.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghawk
"Locking off" and "adding friction" are functions the Autobloc does well, therefore, it is unlikely you would think of using another method of adding these functions, when they are easily done with the Autobloc.Quote:
Originally Posted by deagol
I am not trying to "sell" or encourage use of the Autobloc. It is a useful tool, with advantages and disadvantages.
I do, however, discourage use of the not-Autobloc. :cool2:
T :moses:
Yeah, you can do a contingency from below and I almost typed out how to do it in the earlier post. However, it requires more rope, and is complicated, and nobody does it. That's why I just left the post the way it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Uhhh, not the way I do it. It only results in a bad thing if you screw it up! I assume this is a case of us misunderstanding each other because you are speaking canyonese and I am speaking caveish. I actually have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe it is ACA lingo?Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
In my world, a pickoff is when you ascend up past the patient (we don't call 'em victims until they're dead), attach a lowering device to your upper ascender, attach the patient to the end of the rope, thread the rope through the lowering device, lock it off, transfer the patient's weight to the lower, and lower away. There is more to it than that, but this is just the "we've already hijacked the thread quick version." Do not attempt without more information.
What are you calling a regular pickoff? Are you talking about ascending up the pull side? If so, then agreed, that would have a bad result.
A "regular pickoff" would be by rappelling from above on a separate strand, picking the patient over onto your rap device (too), and descending tandem.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
From this scenario, the regular pickoff would seem to be to ascend the free strand (the pull side), then pickoff. But somewhere in there, the transfer of both lives to the blocked strand would be required, sooner rather than later.
Tom
Hmm, that's interesting. I guess I don't know how that works , unless it means that just simply having a working autoblock accomplishes increasing friction and locking off. I guess that makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
To the bolded, I use a Totem and add friction by wrapping the brake strand around the upper portion- works very well. I would not be able to do that if the brake strand were held down low by an autoblock. Also, locking off is just an additional (yet different) "wrap" through the biner and back over the top. It works sweet. One additional thing, on something like a 2-stage rappel, it is nice to be able to decrease friction when walking from the bottom of the 1st drop to the top of the 2nd drop. Baily Canyon has a rap like this.
I hope we are not hijacking the thread, but it does seem relevant, especialy the adding friction part. In the same canyon, I used the friction added mode on a free-hanging rappel and it was super easy to hold myself in position with minimal grip on the brake strand. It was also smooth going down the rope. Having a good rap device makes things a lot better, IMO.
My thinking was not to do a pickoff under any circumstances. It was either to free him if stuck or go to the top and lower. I have practiced a regular pickoff to my strand when coming from my usual top position but have never needed it in canyon. I am well equipped and have been doing this a while, but I have never practiced and don't even have the gear to transfer to the blocked line under load.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
The bigger problem comes when you don't do the simple things like a fireman's belay and instead video for vanity.
Support. A pickoff should certainly be the last resort in most rescue situations, as it is complex, slow, and puts both rescuer and patient at risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsr70
Tom
Agreed. The advice I got (and give) in rescue training is to not even attempt a pickoff in a real situation unless you have successfully practiced one in the previous two months. This is a technique you have to have down as second nature or you can end up with two stranded people real quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
The learning curve.
Pick off. Theoretically, if a third party or group had been above, and the rapper had been stuck, the other group with a second rope could descend down, tie off, reconnect the other party and rap down with both attached. In the example as is, the photog would have ascended the pull line (I agree) and once there, could have rigged a system to unweight the rapper from his device. But then just what? Normally in a pick off A is above rescued party B, and B then attached to A as they both descend. If B is attached to a stiff rope though, how does A, (that comes to the rescue, and is above him/her) attach a rap device to that taut line? I guess A attches himself to A, let's the rap device stay on B, but A is the one holding and feeding the line as they drop? Or, is there other techique that exists? Or maybe A goes to the top of the line, rigs another block on his side and then down and goes for the pick off, lowering on the line that he just went up. (absent others above, he then has to go back up and release one or both of the blocks)
(I have been in involved in pick offs to release folk that were stuck. Rapping down a 2nd rope, or going down a pull cord line (after blocking it). The lowering has always occured below me and on my line & on my device.)
_________
The emporer offers:
A "regular pickoff" would be by rappelling from above on a separate strand, picking the patient over onto your rap device (too), and descending tandem.
From this scenario, the regular pickoff would seem to be to ascend the free strand (the pull side), then pickoff. But somewhere in there, the transfer of both lives to the blocked strand would be required, sooner rather than later.
For the single-rope pickoffs I have done, the rescuer is on ascenders, not rappel device. It does not matter whether the rescuer starts above or below the patient. The rescuer will need to get above the patient in either case. This can be accomplished by climbing up past the patient, or downclimbing on ascenders from above. As most cave trips are not pull-downs, we are usually ascending up past the patient on the patient's line. (It is the only line.)
One step I left out for clarity earlier but feel obligated now to mention, is that you clip a safety tether between rescuer and patient as soon as patient is reached. This allows for removal of patient's gear from the rope in order to clean up the situation and prepare for lower.
If you read my post above, you will see I am talking about lowering the patient from a rap device attached to the rescuer's ascenders. This takes care of the weighted rope below you problem.
Once again, pickoffs are a last resort answer. Consider another course of action first.
thank you. To date, I have not ascended/practiced passing a party that was caught on rope. I see no problem there, I guess the rescuers rap device is inserted after the patient is taken off the line and is hanging on the rescuers sling leash/tether. Makes sense. Earlier I imagined (as an option) the procedure, (coming down a line that the patient was on - without mechanical ascenders; I had to do that once.) Friction hitches, Blakes, Distel, VT...I used a Blake's Hitch one day to go down a line, clipped a tether to the party and then inserted a rap device after which the two of us went down.
To me, this narrative is worth while. Ascending, self rescue, pick offs, taking the weight off of someones line. Pretty common to have a least one miscue a season, where some rookie or experienced party, catches a glove, shirt or large strand of hair in a device. If the rapper doesn't have (a) slings (b)prussic/slings (c) mechanical unit; and can't get to them quickly; or doesn't have the skill set to set it up; then someone else has to (a) come up/down their line or (b) come down another line and set up a sling or ladder system so the person (assuming they are cognitive/able) can stand up, take the weight off their line and take the object out of the rap device.
I have not been in the arena of caving, but I have been on many canyon trips where ropes were/are set and after going down, we ascend (some pretty significant footage.) Once in a while - couple of times - either a miscue or fatigue put someone in the zone of needing assistance. (someone had to ascend up or down to them). They were either caught on something (miscue) or their pack was taken from them (fatigue).
Other times in Zion I've come across parties (experienced climbers they always told me) who had rapped down free hanging drops of maybe 150 ft and were double stranding on a 50 mtr line. (they would go down 83 ft and holler oops.) The rapper who had no ascender, screaming, dangling on the end of the line.(they had the sense to tie off.) I/we had to go down our line, hook on to the party, have them disconnect from their line, set up on our line and then rap down on our line (not a pick off). These experiences, years ago, heightened my interest in and attention to solving problems in canyons when folk/myself are stranded. And what to do if somebody got injured or in a pickle. Thereafter I most often carried small ascenders/pocket ladder and slings, that I could get to quickly. (I'd carry other slings/gear in the pack)
There are many ways to do it, (rescue) some probably more artful or proficient than my groups style. Regardles, one little lesson we learned though was that when someone is caught or hanging in distress, there is great need to get them out of that circumstance quickly, like immediatly.
I looked at the video twice, and stopped the motion a couple of times. Can't tell if the line is 8 or 9? Appears to be a basic ATC (not an XP). Rope is run through a single biner (vs. two biners) and there is no rope through a biner on the right leg. The slide, slope, slight friction, pack, water and (something else?) stalled his demise. Yes, the best part of this whole story is that this fellow is still with us. (hopefully he gets practice in technique re dialing up optional and correct friction.) The solice and beauty of these places is worth seeing and experiencing. That one event/slip, will not create an identity; with mentoring and practice new safe horizons will unfold.
I have a few thoughts after reading the thread:
I think this happened because of inexperience.
He slipped because was not once perpendicular to the rock face, especially with that last step.
He had not made the "never let go of brake hand" rule concrete in his own mind. Grabbing above his device is further evidence of this.
The rigging of his autoblock was obviously incorrect, but that is not why he slipped. Autoblocks are there in case you screw up.
The discussion about using both strands, or increasing friction, is a bit confusing. How would 2 lines have helped him to not slip or not let go of his brake hand to grab high?
As far as not using an autoblock because it is class "c"; hard-fast rules are a great way to learn, but experience allows one to evaluate risk on a continuous basis. If I HAD to have the video, I would have certainly used an autoblock instead of a firemans belay. That's why we should all learn as much as we can, and be creative with when we use certain techniques. The flow was minor, nobody was wearing a wetsuit (that i could see) so temps were likely not an issue.
And video from below is almost never as good as a POV shot from the dude on rap!
Having an adequate amount of friction equals being in control, and, when I'm in control, I have better situational awareness, am more relaxed, and, am able to make minor adjustments in body position rather than be distracted by the stress of too little friction.Quote:
Originally Posted by mgetchis
Not have an adequate amount of friction is really responsible for all sorts of things, to babies crying, to people going hungry, famine, disease, war, pretty much all of societies ills.
Ha ha.
An odd way to look at it, but we've had this discussion before and I have to admit there is a pebble of truth in the claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
A rappeller should know how to obtain the level of friction they want with the device they have, with whatever rope is encountered. So it is odd (to me) to say that they knew all about rigging their device with two strands and knew very much less about rigging their device with one strand. It is certainly possible, but it points to a lack of training and experience, rather than use one rope vs. two ropes vs. three ropes, vs. four ropes... (turtles all the way down!).
Certainly, someone with little to no training or experience might rig a single line and a double line the same way, and they will be "safer" on the double rope. But then again, someone with little to no training is NEVER safe, out on their own. (But they can be lucky. I was!)
Tom :moses:
I asked the initial question about 2 strands.Quote:
Originally Posted by mgetchis
After watching the video I noticed that Matt used an ATC with no added friction on what looks like a skinny rope. I've used that same setup found it to be very fast, I'll say a 10/10 on the "fast" scale. For me that is unnerving, but for people that are lighter than me, or more skilled, I'm sure it is fine.
Matt probably weighs about what I weigh though so I fugured he would opt for 2 strands i.e. more friction, perhaps a 7/10 speed rating (IMHO). I think the 2 strand setup (on a standard ATC) is much easier to control. I was later informed that they had a contingency rigged on the 2nd strand and that they were comfortable rapping the single strand.
I agree with you that the accident had little or nothing to do with rapping a on a single strand if that is what they are comfortable with. :nod:
But, perhaps Matt did not know how to rig with more friction. So...Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
Then again, REALLY, what happened is he let go with his brake hand. Hard to recover from that, at any normal rappel friction setting, single, double, triple, quadruple strand, whatever!
Tom
I agree with you and mgetchis. Your initial analysis and questions were more educated than mine. :gents:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Bob
This was on 9mm Bluewater Canyonline, technora/nylon, which I find sticky when wet.
Regardless of the friction set up in the device, there would not have been a difference in the slipperiness of the wall. Slippery walls can certainly provide an added challenge to the rappel.
So, on a somewhat related note, I'd recommend that for certain polished walls folks rappel down on their hip or butt instead of trying to stay on their feet. I know this sounds weird, but it makes life easier - and safer - on those slippery slopes. I do this all the time, even on dry walls. It's actually a lot of fun and you can typically rappel much faster sliding down a polished wall than by walking down it. You're essentially doing a controlled slide or toboggan. I'm always amazed at just how much folks will struggle to stay on their feet when they could just slide down with ease.
Simply put, you can't slip if you're aready against the wall. In this case he'd definitely get soaked doing this and without a wetsuit this may not have been an atttractive option. But as they say...You dry quicker than you heal!
Total :2thumbs: agreeeeeement.Quote:
Originally Posted by moabmatt
Tom
I also agree with this. Also, if it's slippery I'll sometimes slide down with my knees on the wall. For some reason I feel more in control that way than I do on my side, not sure why. It is a lot more stable than trying to stay on your feet, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by moabmatt
Yes the buttslide is a good way to prevent the slippery feet. It comes down to good rap technique on this one. Two lines or twenty, you should not use the number of lines as how you plan to increase friction. 9mm isn't really that skinny these days, and is still within the operating range of most of the ATC's I have encountered. Practice Practice Practice! 90 degrees to the wall, never let go of brake hand, even with a prussik, until it is tied off!
This is a fantastic thread! Rubio is kind of a funny canyon. Very slippery and lots of newbies. I was there this past weekend with my wife and a friend who had previous experience in Zion and rock climbing - 3 people total. We were practicing for a Zion trip.
We had a near accident on a different part of this canyon. I had the "new" person go down second a couple of times to ensure she was belayed as I assessed her abilities. On a 25ft rap, she slipped in the waterway. I saw her left hand go down to stop the fall, then her right hand left the rope completely for about a second. The belayer saw it coming and engaged the belay. I let the rappeler know that she had completely let go of the rope - she was NOT AWARE that she did it. Afterwards, we spent some time "refreshing" the finer points of not letting go, using an autoblock, and how to belay properly.
I used to hate the autoblock and found it slow and pointless. Now I really like it when used with my chain reactor - it helps to practice and tune it in for different ropes. I agree it should not be a crutch - yet when used properly, it's very dependable (like most gear). It's very handy for the first person going down, in waterfalls, and at night. I have every rappeler test their systems first, auto-block or not. If there's a reliable fireman's belay below, I usually say no auto-block is needed.
Thalehaha Falls has a nice flat station to test everything out ahead of time. When we arrived at the falls this weekend, I had a contingency anchor rigged for single rope rap and our new member chose to use the auto-block while being belayed. Slow, but no worries. I collected a big locking SMC carabiner on the webbing of this rappel and couldn't figure out the scenario that led to it being there (another rescue?). Maybe someone didn't trust the rapide.
:haha: Always good to go over those every once in awhile :spruceup:Quote:
Originally Posted by unripecoconut
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but in your scenario, with your less-experienced partner insisting on going after you, you could have pre-rigged his set-up. In flowing water, however, the third hand friction hitch may be a serious liability. Also, a Fireman's belay from you could have avoided this situation entirely. Better come home alive than have great footage of your buddy dying.
Very strange that this thread has popped back to the top today as I just did this canyon today and was thinking about this incident. ..the rappel looks fairly sloped in the video, but in reality it is much more steeper than it looks.
Glad he was not seriously injured, and yes, I recognize this is an old conversation/thread. But I think Ken nails it in what I bold-faced above. Being out of proper alignment almost dooms one to slip on polished, wet rock. At this angle, his feet no longer have enough contact with the wall so that he can continue "walking" down the face of the cliff. Once he slips, his feet are dangling uselessly below his torso, and as he swings toward the rock face, he reflexively releases his brake hand so he can "stiff arm" the wall and avoid coming into contact with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinesnaper
To be sure, some slipping may have still occurred even if his legs were perpendicular to the rock face, but he could have warded off the wall by repositioning his feet, and not been tempted to use his arm/hand to avoid impact with the wall. Leaning back and being mostly perpendicular to the rock face is also important for negotiating overhangs and lips as well. Again, so glad he sustained no serious injuries. Live and learn.
People will watch and read this and come to different conclusions as to the "cause" of the accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by townsend
Me, I KNOW for CERTAIN, that the dude had two eggs over-easy and a cinnabon for breakfast, and was clearly out of alignment with the odd-numbers that keep out universe running smoothly. ONE egg or THREE eggs people, NEVER eat exactly TWO!!!!
I can say that I often rappel in unusual positions, including being almost vertical and letting my feet slide down the rock. Which saved my life in one instance. Focusing on his rappel position misses two much more important points, which to me are the key CAUSES of this accident:
A. someone chose to take a beginner through a Class C canyon as a twosome - inappropriate choice of canyon for this individual.
B. someone chose to shoot frakin' video, rather than provide a bottom belay to a beginner on a challenging, slippery rappel.
These are the CAUSES of this accident - everything else is a contributing factor. You can point to his lack of rappelling skill - which just reinforces my points A and B above.
Tom :moses:
Tom,
I was focusing more on the immediate cause that led the rappeler to let go of the brake line---he slipped and stuck his arm out to "absorb the immediate impact of hitting the rock" (Ken's description).
Nonetheless, your points are well made and focus on the broader context of poor choices that were made (beginner in wet canyon, and lack of bottom belay), raising the risk of an accident occurring.