Came across an injured Canyoneer in Imlay (what would you do)

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Gives all rappelling, no matter the method, a bad name.

I try to impart a safety check protocol. Clip into the anchor. Rig your device. Go fully on rappel, check it to see if functions properly. Then, unclip and descend.

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Testing while backed up proves it's worth in gold, time and time again. Everyone would do well to heed these words.

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Biner block just isn't that useful a tool, except, to keep from having to pass a knot if your rope lengths don't add up for a longer rappel. I still wonder why folks bother with it when they have enough rope to just rappel double. Seems like a silly thing to rig when your ropes are long enough to begin with. Of course, making sure you have both ropes engaged should be standard for a double rope rappel too...(with bad consequences if that is f'd up too).

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Going to agree with this sentiment as well. Sometimes people just get into the mode of doing the same thing (biner block) every single time, when in many cases, doing a double rope rappel would eliminate the chance of human error (rapping the wrong side) and also increase the frictional control of the rappel (how many "got going to fast" errors have we heard of?).

Don't be afraid to double strand rap... you dont JUST have to single rope technique in every scenario.

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

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Originally Posted by canyonguru

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

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That could turn into a LOT of rope sometimes...

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Originally Posted by bshwakr

Isn't it the 'lot of rope' mindset that has encouraged the use of pull cords and biener blocks? Canyoneering is a team sport, weight can be distributed, shorter ropes can be used in a variety of situations. Perhaps those who are concerned about weight and difficulty should stick to the Keyholes and Pine Creeks.

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I understand that, and I prefer rappelling double strand because of the added safety (and especially the added control). However, I feel like it could be taken to excess, and there are plenty of situations where rappelling double strand is just not as viable an option, for example on really long drops. I hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth here, but that's my opinion. I think if everyone pays attention and it's rigged correctly the biner block is a totally acceptable method. But, we digress from the original topic of this thread.

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Originally Posted by canyonguru

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

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Don't mean to pick on you, Guru, so please don't take it that way. But...

I am concerned that there is a belief that using "Method A" rather than "Method B" produces "verry little room for error". Perhaps CanyonGuru was lobbing in a soft one, but I am sure he has typed the word 'very' many, many times in his life, and yet... I think this is a VERY DANGEROUS way to think about technical skills. :crazy: :nono:

I hold that the particular method does not matter so much as being proficient in what you are doing, and paying attention at all times. Using double-rope technique, there are MANY opportunities for error (that's a "don't kid yourself" statement). There are many ways to improve the robustness of any system (using robustness to mean resistance to error, and minimizing consequences when an error is made) - such as tying the pull strand off to the anchor when using single rope technique, or adding a Stone Knot when using double rope technique.

Really, really, REALLY - what counts is being proficient at what you are doing, and paying attention. :cool2:

So get proficient.

Proficiency comes from learning, being trained, practicing and teaching. Teaching improves your proficiency better than anything else. If you are the most proficient person in a canyon group, you should not be setting any anchors. If you are the least proficient, even your first canyon, you should be setting the MOST anchors. Explaining how to do things, and why you do things, leads to greater understanding of how and why. = proficiency. I think we would all be safer out there if we did this on a regular basis (when appropriate).

By "being trained", I mean deliberate, thorough training - not just picking something up by seeing your buddy do it once or twice (as in that accident in Pine Creek). You can train each other by examining what you do as a group, discussing pros and cons, what people like about it and don't like, when you think you should use it or not; ways to make it better (more robust); things to watch out for. Etc. I think adding some deliberateness to our passage through the canyons is the best way to improve the safety of the community. Not lobbying people to use one style rather than another.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by bshwakr

Isn't it the 'lot of rope' mindset that has encouraged the use of pull cords and biener blocks? Canyoneering is a team sport, weight can be distributed, shorter ropes can be used in a variety of situations. Perhaps those who are concerned about weight and difficulty should stick to the Keyholes and Pine Creeks.

k

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Yes and no to your question. I like the options of biner blocks with the pull side rope at the anchor "in the event of" what ever. I like them to set the length of rappel for effeciency with large groups. Also water disconnects. Lots of reason for biner blocks with the right group and individuals. Lots of reasons to not use them in many situations or groups if you have sufficient rope at the top of the rap to effect rescue should the event arise.

Now that being said (and having said this before) the Mapleton boys usually go heavy on the ropes. Our Heaps trip a couple of years ago comes to mind when he had our limit of 6 people available to carry ropes. We carried two 300 foot-ers, a 200'er, two 120'ers and and a couple of 50's if memory serves me correctly. That is about 1140 feet of rope we carried. It made me feel all warm and fuzzy with all that rope in our group. :haha: Seriously, I see no need to skimp on rope. I tend to think in worse case scenario anyway.

Also, I am not a pull cord kinda guy. Seems a waste to me. I'd rather lug a couple more pounds and have useful rope.

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Originally Posted by bshwakr

There have been many groups over the years that have mistaken information for experience.

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And I'd add to that.... there are many canyoneers who mistake being led through a canyon with "doing" a canyon..... and while both are fun and legitimate descents, there is a difference....

Sometimes I think so-n-so hears his buddy did <insert name here> with Canyonman and figures if his no talent buddy can do the canyon he can too....

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

And I'd add to that.... there are many canyoneers who mistake being led through a canyon with "doing" a canyon..... and while both are fun and legitimate descents, there is a difference....

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And I would add A BIG FAT DIFFERENCE. Doing a canyon and leading a canyon are two entirely different things.

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Originally Posted by bshwakr

There have been many groups over the years that have mistaken information for experience.

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And ambition for competence.

T

and youth and strength for wisdom and skill....



I wish I had ALL that stuff.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Really, really, REALLY - what counts is being proficient at what you are doing, and paying attention. :cool2:

So get proficient.



Tom :moses:

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:2thumbs:

This is true!
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Also, though, I'd say that all proficiency being equal,SRT has more chances of humman error than DRT. There are more steps required to set up a SRT to ensure safety.

If you run SRT like most people that I've encountered, then you don't have it tied off, you simply have a biner block on one side, and people make sure to clip into the proper side. No problem if you always clip into the proper side. Big problem if you dont.

With DRT, you always clip into both strands, which does eliminate the "wrong side" problem, and also eliminates the extra steps required with SRT that can be taken to eliminate the "wrong" side problem.
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I think Tom hit's the nail on the head though, you want to be proficient with the techniques you use; really proficient, not just in theory. Just because I argue that DRT has less places to fail due to Human Error, it doesn't mean that you should never use SRT.

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Originally Posted by oval

Also, though, I'd say that all proficiency being equal,SRT has more chances of humman error than DRT.

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I believe Clarke's third law applies here:

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Originally Posted by Arthur C. Clarke

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

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Well, that may be a little oblique.

The method YOU use seems to be simple. That is one reason you use it. Also, by using it, it becomes conceptually simpler.

The method I use is very simple. For me. Simple to practice, simple to understand, simple to teach, simple to learn. For me.

I understand Brian BDC is switching over to quadruple rope technique. After he has had a few years of practice with it, it will seem extremely simple. To him.

When I teach one-day courses, I start with double rope technique. If the students have never rappelled before, we usually do not concentrate on ropework much, and they end the day with a strong understanding of double rope technique. I usually show them single rope technique, so if offered a single rope rappel in a canyon, they can understand that it is a valid technique, and have an idea of what adjustments to make. But, your basic beginner one-day-basic student, time is better spent on other issues than setting up biner blocks etc. etc... and... much less benefit to the beginner canyoneer to learn single rope technique.

Jes sayin'...

Just sayin', Oval, that while the technique you use is simple, I like using my technique because it uses MAGIC!

Tom :moses:

seems like we have wandered quite a bit from the original accident topic here. I think the question should be not what kind of a system did this victim set up to do this rap with, but rather where were the other 3 people on this trip, and how is it that no one else took the time to look at or check the rap set up before the first person clipped in and took off. Unless she was the leader on this trip, and that seems unlikely given what transpired, it was incumbent for at least one other person to see what was set up, how, and to double check it before anyone clipped in. i understand that the group was somewhat stressed by what happened earlier in the canyon, but to me it seems like that should have been all the more reason for care, vigilence, and double checking each other and each set up. The group/team concept was mentioned earlier, and repeated when it came to carrying rope- but hauling a few lbs of nylon or poly thru the canyons pales in importance with people putting their life on the line every time they clip into a rope, this is where things have to be checked and double checked before the commitment is made to step over that edge.

rick t

A fall from that distance means likely internal bleeding and/or a spinal injury. Bleeding requires a faster evac, spinal requires no movement. With both equally likely, either choice is equally correct in my opinion. However, given that death is worse than the potential spinal injury, I'd give a slight nod to getting the victim out faster.

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Originally Posted by rick t

seems like we have wandered quite a bit from the original accident topic here. I think the question should be not what kind of a system did this victim set up to do this rap with, but rather where were the other 3 people on this trip, and how is it that no one else took the time to look at or check the rap set up before the first person clipped in and took off. Unless she was the leader on this trip, and that seems unlikely given what transpired, it was incumbent for at least one other person to see what was set up, how, and to double check it before anyone clipped in. i understand that the group was somewhat stressed by what happened earlier in the canyon, but to me it seems like that should have been all the more reason for care, vigilence, and double checking each other and each set up. The group/team concept was mentioned earlier, and repeated when it came to carrying rope- but hauling a few lbs of nylon or poly thru the canyons pales in importance with people putting their life on the line every time they clip into a rope, this is where things have to be checked and double checked before the commitment is made to step over that edge.

rick t

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The physical setup of this particular rappel makes it difficult to check other people.

Tom

Didn't mean to add the rr in very. Every rappel is different and requires a different approach. The rappel might call for a double rap, or a biner block or whatever the case maybe. I stated that i like to use a double rap most of the time because that is what I'M most comfortable with. To have a large bag of tricks is great if you are proficient at each trick. I have a mid size bag of tricks but am only proficient at a few of them so i choose to use what i am the most proficient at.

What would have happened if the Guide or Leader of the group was the one who fell off of Imlay canyon leaving the two noobs up at the top to figure it out for themselves. Tom makes a great point about teaching each group member at least the basics of setting up each rap. I check myself and my group and they check me on every drop. Just like the old saying goes practice makes perfect.

There are two many ways to set up a rappel and two many different ideas and techniques out there for there to be a one right way every time. So yes saying that a biner block in this situation was wrong is not the right answer nor does saying that a double strand rap would have allowed this accident not to happen. I think i comes down to what YOU are most comfortable with and what YOU have the most training or experience with. Not what anyone else says or does.

Some like to join ropes with an EDK, some like to use a figure eight follow through. If the situation calls for an EDK then go for it. If the situation calls for a biner block than use a biner block. It is very hard for us to speculate on what happened when we were not there.

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Originally Posted by canyonguru

What would have happened if the Guide or Leader of the group was the one who fell off of Imlay canyon leaving the two noobs up at the top to figure it out for themselves. Tom makes a great point about teaching each group member at least the basics of setting up each rap. I check myself and my group and they check me on every drop. Just like the old saying goes practice makes perfect.

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I would hope that everyone on a trip through Imlay would be capable of setting themselves up on rappel.

Not the best first canyon.

Tom

Hehe, I see what you are saying Tom, and certainly the more practice you have with any given technique, the better you get at it.

At the same time, setting up a biner block simply has more steps, and more places to screw up. From a pure probability standpoint.

You're right, any technique that you hammer into your head should be pretty safe, and certainly it should be safer than any technique that you DONT use very much of the time. I dont think that means, however, that some techniques don't have more places to fail than others.

Just my opinions. :bandit:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

I would hope that everyone on a trip through Imlay would be capable of setting themselves up on rappel.

Not the best first canyon.

Tom

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agree. and I would add probably not the best to teach or practice new techniques in. better canyons for that.

(comment is general comment since the thread has changed and not commenting on this specific imlay group)

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

The physical setup of this particular rappel makes it difficult to check other people.

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I find myself checking people verbally in this particular situation (well, not exactly "this", as I am not skilled enough to descend Imlay...yet). Most of my canyoneering trips involve at least 1 noob. Every noob I take along has to come and practice rappelling with me before getting into a canyon. I always teach to clip in to the anchor system with a safety tether and lock the biner, next to get on rappel and cinch up the rope until weight is on the rope and there is slack in the safety line. Once they ensure they are locked in and the rope is holding them, they can then unclip from the anchor. When in a canyon and approached with an anchor where I can not physically check each person, I will go through the list verbally with them: Are you clipped in? Is your rappel device hooked onto the rope and locking biner locked? Is your weight on the rope and not on your tether? Ok, then unclip the tether you are good to go. By assuring that each persons weight is on the rope, they are then sure (as am I) that they are clipped into the correct side of the biner block. I will do this even if we are rappelling double stranded.

and this story just keeps taking new twists... a failed natural anchor caused the first fall and broken foot. and, no permit? wow. :facepalm1:

Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues

July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. Members of the group began their descent of Imlay on July 16th. This canyon has one of the park’s more difficult canyoneering routes, with over 20 rappels, extremely cold water, and numerous potholes requiring specialized techniques for escape. As group members were completing a 10 foot rappel using a log jammed crosswise in the canyon as an anchor, the log anchor failed and the 20-year-old man who was on the rope suffered a possible lower leg fracture. The injured man was moved a short distance down canyon to a wide area and all spent the night there. In the morning, one party member stayed with the injured man while the remaining five canyoneers continued on the route, promising to send help once their trip was complete. Early in the evening of July 17th, they arrived at the last rappel 140 feet above the Zion Narrows. The first canyoneer to complete the free-hanging rappel then hurried to the Temple of Sinawava Trailhead two miles downstream to report the incident. Group members were using the carabineer block technique at the anchor, allowing party members to rappel on one strand of rope while using two strands of rope tied together to function as a pull cord. If used correctly, a carabineer and knot jam against the anchor prevents the rope from pulling through the anchor while the canyoneer is on rope. Connecting the rappel device to the correct side of the anchor is critical. The second-to-last party member to descend the last rappel attached her device on the wrong side of the anchor; when she put weight on it, she fell the entire distance into the shallow water below – a distance equivalent to 13 stories. Her life was likely saved by the friction or bunching of the rope whipping through the anchor, slowing her fall just enough at the last second. While a ranger at the trailhead was taking information concerning the initial lower leg fracture, a visitor rushed to the trailhead to report that a woman had fallen 140 feet. Rangers quickly organized a carryout via raft litter and evacuated the woman to the trailhead, arriving shortly after midnight. Her most serious injury was a shattered ankle. On the morning of July 18th, Grand Canyon National Park’s contract helicopter and short-haul team evacuated the man with the initial lower leg fracture out of the center of Imlay Canyon. The use of short haul prevented the need for a long, difficult technical rope rescue. Charges concerning the group’s wilderness permit violations are pending.

http://home.nps.gov/applications/dig...idents&id=5780

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues

July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. . . Charges concerning the group’s wilderness permit violations are pending.

http://home.nps.gov/applications/dig...idents&id=5780

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Did they not have a permit period or did they have one extra over the permit limit? Or was it two groups in the same drainage which is also prohibited?

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

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Yep, and that, my friend, is why you never get Mystery permits. The List.......:eek2: :lol8:

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

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unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all... and really, imlay? not that difficult of a permit to get.

i'm sorry, the permit system sucks in zion. but poaching canyons is a load of shit, and it will ultimately negatively affect the community in general. poaching canyons is especially stupid when you need two SARs. can't play by the rules but still want someone to save you?

i just hope crap like this doesn't influence policy at other parks, namely grand canyon, where rescues are going to be exponentially more difficult, expensive, and possibly more dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

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well if you are going to poach or break permit rules/laws don't get caught AND don't cause a SAR operation. my best guess is the fine will be above $150.

because of the permit violation they could be charged the entire amount for the rescue including use of the helicopter. hopefully the injured has health insurance that covers air ambulance and doesn't require pre-approval because that will cost $$$.

even then most SAR try to avoid charging unless it was gross negligence.

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Yep, and that, my friend, is why you never get Mystery permits. The List.......:eek2: :lol8:

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Best.... sentence..... eva!!!!!
:lol8::lol8::lol8::lol8:

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all... and really, imlay? not that difficult of a permit to get.

i'm sorry, the permit system sucks in zion. but poaching canyons is a load of shit, and it will ultimately negatively affect the community in general. poaching canyons is especially stupid when you need two SARs. can't play by the rules but still want someone to save you?

i just hope crap like this doesn't influence policy at other parks, namely grand canyon, where rescues are going to be exponentially more difficult, expensive, and possibly more dangerous.

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I hear ya bro, but if it's a big problem, it's the park's duty to enforce their rules. And don't tell me they are short staffed. If one ranger caught just two groups a day of 6 people 2x6x$150 = $1800/day x5x4=$36,000/month x12=$432,000/year. That could fund itself easily with just one ranger sitting on a trail. And like trackrunner said, maybe it's even more than $150 I'm just guessing really. Anyone have an actual number? I can remember a person getting fined $375 for turning 3 permitted 12 man groups into one super group in Subway, but I don't know anyone who's even been caught.

I'm seriously gonna poach Mystery one of these days though... :nod:

Oh and side note... I did get a message from a member of the group and I think it would be ok to share, that the gal who fell is having a hard time getting over this experience. Sounds like mild psychological damage. Waking up reliving the experience or falling, cold sweats, panic attacks, stuff like that. Please keep her in your thoughts and prayers, I'm sure this is not an easy thing to get over and she needs all the help she can get.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

I hear ya bro, but if it's a big problem, it's the park's duty to enforce their rules.

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wtf? this coming from my libertarian friend? you are freakin' dreaming. it's the duty of the COMMUNITY to play ball, or we are just going to get further screwed in the future policy making. it's situations like these that give the whole community a black eye, and gives the impression that canyoneers will do whatever the hell they want regardless of current rules.

and mystery seriously sucks, it's not worth poaching. don't be a douche.

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

wtf? this coming from my libertarian friend? you are freakin' dreaming. it's the duty of the COMMUNITY to play ball, or we are just going to get further screwed in the future policy making. it's situations like these that give the whole community a black eye, and gives the impression that canyoneers will do whatever the hell they want regardless of current rules.

and mystery seriously sucks, it's not worth poaching. don't be a douche.

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Hehe, libertarian bordering on anarchist. There is zero conflict despising and perhaps bypassing stupid rules for me. "If we don't play ball the government is gonna get us in the future". Sounds like fear based decision making to me. But I digress, you are one of my heroes and I won't argue with you.
:2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

maybe it's even more than $150 I'm just guessing really. Anyone have an actual number? I can remember a person getting fined $375 for turning 3 permitted 12 man groups into one super group in Subway, but I don't know anyone who's even been caught.

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Tom provides the information in this thread (quote below) up to $500. Judge/magistrate can take it up to $1000.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

The ticketing officer has quite a bit of discretion, depending on how much lip you give him. CAN fine you up to 500$, is what i have heard. I highly recommend not lying to the officer in any way. This is a MUCH greater offense and they take it quite seriously. It is also possible for the officer to ticket EVERY PERSON in your group. If you contest it and go before the magistrate in St George, my understanding is the magistrate can go as high as $ 1000.00, and 90 days in jail.

As much as I find the permit somewhat ridiculous, I recommend staying within the confines of the permit system.

Incidentally, (HI [Suri]), since the Park monitors this channel you may not want to broadcast when you are about to break the law... :nono: Premeditation, if known, would bump you up into a higher category of culpability.

:ne_nau: 'jes sayin'

Tom :moses:

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i'm not saying i always agree with the rules, but anarchy isn't going to solve anything. trust me, i know how tedious the bureaucracy in these national parks can be, we've had a devil of a time trying to work with them on our latest project. i'm simply saying the ultimate path of least resistance is to demonstrate good behavior as a community. it's simple cause and effect.

you call it "fear based." i call it "reality based." that's probably a key difference between you and I... :haha:

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Tom provides the information hear up to $500. Judge/magistrate can take it up to $1000.

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Yeah, $150 ticket for something like this, I don't think so. Also the Park may charge the parties with full cost of the rescue. Were these folks too busy to set up express permits or show up before the wildnerness desk closed the evening before? This type of reckless behavior unfortunately reflects very poorly on the canyoneering community as a whole.

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Oh and side note... I did get a message from a member of the group and I think it would be ok to share, that the gal who fell is having a hard time getting over this experience. Sounds like mild psychological damage. Waking up reliving the experience or falling, cold sweats, panic attacks, stuff like that. Please keep her in your thoughts and prayers, I'm sure this is not an easy thing to get over and she needs all the help she can get.

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This sounds like post traumatic stress disorder and there is typically nothing mild about it. Psychotherapy will be essential to deal with this situation. Falling 110 feet and fracturing your heal is terrible. Thankfully, she was not more injured. However, a shattered ankle or heel is a very difficult injury. It is probable that she will have permanent damage to her gait even with the best of surgery and all the appropriate rehabilitation. She will have a very long road to recovery and I am sure, not withstanding the poor judgement of her group, we all wish her a full, speedy, and miraculous recovery.

Take home lesson, make due haste in effecting the rescue of an injured party member but don't cut corners or relax your vigilance in getting that help, and please respect the Zion National Park permit system. You may not like it but don't create a situation where the rangers feel like they have to camp out in our canyons because we are all a bunch of goofballs that need to be protected from ourselves.

Ken

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I acually poached Mystery Wed. I left my permit on the dash of the car.

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Originally Posted by canyonguru

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I acually poached Mystery Wed. I left my permit on the dash of the car.

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I don't think you poached the canyon if you paid for your permit and simply left it in your car. You'd just have to get the ranger to go to the car or something. Or get the ticket canceled after or something... probably a bit of a pain but I don't see them being that unjust. maybe I'm wrong though. anybody ever have something like that happen?

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all...

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a couple of the members of the party sent me notes tonight suggesting i had completely misrepresented them on this forum. they did in fact have a permit, but they exceeded the group size. they also adamantly denied ever violating any permits in the past, and explained that some of their friends may have poached in the past, but they were not a part of this trip.

so my apologies to those involved for suggesting that they may have violated permit rules previously. i made an unfair assumption, and an incorrect one at that.

Yeah I got the same kinda message. I am kinda stuck here, trying to not pass any info from the group that would be considered sensitive. Let's face it this is pretty much the canyoneering equivalent of a bunch of gossiping housewives. But I think by the tone and formality I can pass this one along. "once again you personally have the opportunity to do the right thing and help out" is a pretty dead giveaway. :) If I overstepped my bounds then I apologize to the group.

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Dear Deathcricket:)

We actually had permits for 6 and another group of 2. Our group of six dropped to 5 when the one guy had to bring his GF at the last minute so he split from the group and picked up 2 permits of his own. I knew the canyon limit was 12.

I believe that some statements in this thread could border on being slanderous. For someone to state that I have "a history of poaching canyons" or anyone in the group. It's wrong, inaccurate, unnecessary and ON the internet for crap sake.

Because of this website I now have people contacting me to ask me which canyons I've poached and why I don't use permits. Come on.....we all know it's not fair for that sort of game to be played with someone's reputation even though you say I'm still anonymous. That's where this turns a bad trip into a bigger mess. I'm not sure why the canyoneering community gets off on attacking people...but I've seen it many times. The climbing community doesn't treat people like this.......EVER.

Good news is that once again you personally have the opportunity to do the right thing and help out.

Thanks in advance for understanding.
- Person in group -

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Replying to my own post, lol. So they did have permits for everyone, but went over the 6 person limit by having a 7 person group (2+5). I think she might be under the impression the group limit is 12 in the canyon, which is an easy mistake since most of them are and the canyon limit is 12 like she said. So it's a BS charge IMO and probably a slap on the wrist since everyone did have permits, they just formed a "supergroup" of 7 people which is forbidden. But again, how do you prove they were "together" in the canyon?