Zion Permit System

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

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Or perhaps allocate the walk-ins for The Subway and Mystery with a daily lottery, drawn at 5pm the day before? That would eliminate the whole "up at Stupid O'Clock" thing in one fell swoop.

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I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

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Bit harsh on wilderness campers or people staying in hotels with no access to printers or even the Internet if you have to go online/print it yourself the day before though.

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

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Bit harsh on wilderness campers or people staying in hotels with no access to printers or even the Internet if you have to go online/print it yourself the day before though.

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Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

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That sounds pretty reasonable.

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

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That sounds pretty reasonable.

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And if AM doesn't work...maybe do it in the PM day before? I know this still doesn't work for many people whether AM, PM, day before or day of, but I still hold to my thoughts that some areas need daily restrictions. Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

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you mean you didn't fly across "the pond" just to wait in line instead of sleeping or getting started on your trip?

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

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Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

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Or perhaps allocate the walk-ins for The Subway and Mystery with a daily lottery, drawn at 5pm the day before? That would eliminate the whole "up at Stupid O'Clock" thing in one fell swoop.

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There not going to like that idea. Then they would have that big ugly line when the VC is busy. Bad P.R.
Mark

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

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I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

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Kiosks.

Having Kiosks at the VC where people could fill out their information without requiring a ranger doing it for them; then pay their money (we know how to do this without a person now, right?); then only a final sign off by the ranger. This would speed up the line.

You could also have kiosks in other locations such as at Lava Point, the East Entrance, The Desert Rat in St George, Zion Ponderosa, Cedar City, Salt Lake City, The Internets... WITH modern technology, many things are possible.

But the Park Service is hampered by an inability to use modern technology.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I believe that Vermillion Cliffs/Paria Canyon Wilderness "The Wave" uses a system similar to this. However they have a line formed at the door before the doors open the day before intended trip. This too has it's problems. Many people can't get there the day before and if they can, they then wait to see if they "win". If they do or don't they then have to travel back and forth often from long distances. At least if all the legwork is done via internet, you might find out if you've won from at home before travelling long distances.

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Bit harsh on wilderness campers or people staying in hotels with no access to printers or even the Internet if you have to go online/print it yourself the day before though.

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Ok..so maybe have a line formed at 4 or 5am the day before or day of intended hike. Pass out a different colored "raffle ticket" to all waiting contingent on which hike is being sought. Immediately draw the winners from the hat and winners proceed to get permits. If there isn't a full quota filled on some of the hikes, immediately announce and have those that desire to re-enter into another immediate drawing?

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I must be slow, seems like a few computer terminals at the desk to electronically pull your permit solves the majority of the problems.
A couple of terminals for trying to obtain a permit a couple for picking up lottery permits. :ne_nau: They already have this program available on line through express permit. Just put it in the building. :frustrated:

I was typing while Tom was posting. Tom, they have the technology I use it all the time. Can someone take this whole thread print it out and put it together and deliver to the Head Park Supervisor?
Mark

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

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Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

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Not sure what "trick" you refer to Tom? I'm not very good at navigating, copying, pasting from this thread, but I do remember some comments and posts that suggest "poaching and wiping my ^$$ with any ticket, links from previous threads on the "how-tos of poaching" and not too sure if I read any others? Maybe I read these wrong and the comments just refer to "total dissatisfaction" of the current system and are quite serious or maybe they just are joking?

Question, why on Subway and Mystery do they even have a walk up program. Why not just lottery them all off? I would imagine most of the people in the line are waiting for one of those permits?

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

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I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

---

Kiosks.

Having Kiosks at the VC where people could fill out their information without requiring a ranger doing it for them; then pay their money (we know how to do this without a person now, right?); then only a final sign off by the ranger. This would speed up the line.

You could also have kiosks in other locations such as at Lava Point, the East Entrance, The Desert Rat in St George, Zion Ponderosa, Cedar City, Salt Lake City, The Internets... WITH modern technology, many things are possible.

But the Park Service is hampered by an inability to use modern technology.

Tom :moses:

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:2thumbs: Seems resonable to me? Has this been presented to the Park?

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

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Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

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Not sure what "trick" you refer to Tom? I'm not very good at navigating, copying, pasting from this thread, but I do remember some comments and posts that suggest "poaching and wiping my ^$$ with any ticket, links from previous threads on the "how-tos of poaching" and not too sure if I read any others? Maybe I read these wrong and the comments just refer to "total dissatisfaction" of the current system and are quite serious or maybe they just are joking?

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Posturing? On Bogley?

"I am shocked, shocked I say, to see posturing taking place on this website"

But seriously - posturing about poaching is not the same as saying that there should be no use limits on anything. It is a response to frustrations with the current system.

The 'trick' is one currently popular in politics and I think (being a liberal) used aggressively by conservatives. It is the 'strawman' fallacy, detailed well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

T :moses:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Question, why on Subway and Mystery do they even have a walk up program. Why not just lottery them all off? I would imagine most of the people in the line are waiting for one of those permits?

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In order to be fair to people coming form overseas, perhaps.

It seems like 'some' should be held for walkups, in order to increase the fairness of the system. Hard to construct a tight argument for it, but it seems like a good idea to me.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Some still believe that there should be no restrictions at all, but I just don't see this happenning?

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Other than Wade, who?

Don't pull that old trick, Bo, of mis-stating 'the other sides' case, then pointing out how absurd it is.

Tom

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Not sure what "trick" you refer to Tom? I'm not very good at navigating, copying, pasting from this thread, but I do remember some comments and posts that suggest "poaching and wiping my ^$$ with any ticket, links from previous threads on the "how-tos of poaching" and not too sure if I read any others? Maybe I read these wrong and the comments just refer to "total dissatisfaction" of the current system and are quite serious or maybe they just are joking?

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Posturing? On Bogley?

"I am shocked, shocked I say, to see posturing taking place on this website"

But seriously - posturing about poaching is not the same as saying that there should be no use limits on anything. It is a response to frustrations with the current system.

The 'trick' is one currently popular in politics and I think (being a liberal) used aggressively by conservatives. It is the 'strawman' fallacy, detailed well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

T :moses:

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You're right Tom. A kneejerk reaction on my part. Once again sincerely apologize for my assumptions. Yes....frustrations I can see.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Kiosks.

Having Kiosks at the VC where people could fill out their information without requiring a ranger doing it for them; then pay their money (we know how to do this without a person now, right?); then only a final sign off by the ranger. This would speed up the line.

You could also have kiosks in other locations such as at Lava Point, the East Entrance, The Desert Rat in St George, Zion Ponderosa, Cedar City, Salt Lake City, The Internets... WITH modern technology, many things are possible.

But the Park Service is hampered by an inability to use modern technology.

Tom :moses:

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:2thumbs: Seems resonable to me? Has this been presented to the Park?

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MY presenting suggestions to the Park seems to fall on deaf ears. Perhaps a similar suggestion from Bo Beck would meet with greater listening.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

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you mean you didn't fly across "the pond" just to wait in line instead of sleeping or getting started on your trip?

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Waiting in line in such amazing scenery (which can't be seen because it's pitch dark) has to be my idea of the ultimate vacation :haha:

At least today is "take it easy after The Subway day", so we can snooze for a bit, and maybe then soak in the hot tub, potter round the Emerald Pools, and then have a nice dinner at Zion Lodge or something.

Got to book a taxi for Mystery tomorrow too (I believe there's still a permit available - one of our group doesn't feel up to it so we took 5 of the 6) - no way am I hauling all that equipment up from Weeping Rock.

this whole discussion was started because a party was asked to show their permit while they were on the side of the road getting ready. Shouldn't the ranger already know that there's a party of 6 with a blue chevy pickup truck with a CA license plate xxx xxx that was issued a permit for that canyon. They sure as hell knew that I had an unpaid ticket that was over 5 years old when we hiked out of the Subway one day. The only reason the ranger should actually have to come over and question somebody is if the vehicle that was being used was not in the system for that day.

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Originally Posted by UtahAdventureGuide

this whole discussion was started because a party was asked to show their permit while they were on the side of the road getting ready. Shouldn't the ranger already know that there's a party of 6 with a blue chevy pickup truck with a CA license plate xxx xxx that was issued a permit for that canyon. They sure as hell knew that I had an unpaid ticket that was over 5 years old when we hiked out of the Subway one day. The only reason the ranger should actually have to come over and question somebody is if the vehicle that was being used was not in the system for that day.

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I'm turning into the ranger apologist around here. Believe me, this is not the case. I'm grateful the two rangers stopped and asked me what was going on while I was waiting at the wrong location for the Friday Spry group. They didn't impinge negatively on my wilderness experience, instead they helped me find my group and have a wilderness experience.

Now, did they stop to harass me about a permit since I was wearing a pack with a harness and helmet strapped in plain sight to the outside of it, or did they stop to talk and maybe help me? It's all in your point of view. I'm new, and I haven't had a negative experience with the rangers yet.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Question, why on Subway and Mystery do they even have a walk up program. Why not just lottery them all off? I would imagine most of the people in the line are waiting for one of those permits?

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In order to be fair to people coming form overseas, perhaps.

It seems like 'some' should be held for walkups, in order to increase the fairness of the system. Hard to construct a tight argument for it, but it seems like a good idea to me.

Tom

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I could be wrong but I imagine most of the walk up crowd is for the subway permits? If this is the case maybe a simple solution would be to use one of the windows for subway and the other for all other permits?
Mark

Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

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Good guess.... :2thumbs:

And the first person in line usually wants to look at pictures and discuss options of every route in the park. Followed by a complete discussion on every rule.... with the one ranger....

Most groups are pretty fast. But I have been behind groups that take 30 minutes or more before....

:bootyshake:

Living in Hurricane I have stood in line many times to pick up permits for my group, who mostly come from Vegas.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I could be wrong but I imagine most of the walk up crowd is for the subway permits? If this is the case maybe a simple solution would be to use one of the windows for subway and the other for all other permits?
Mark

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I am surprised how many "tourists" show up early in the morning to pickup permits for the Narrows and the West Rim. The first 4 groups in line are almost always for Subway and Mystery; which means someone is going back to bed...

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

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Evey time I have gone early for permits there are two rangers. And knowing what I want, I am usually done and gone before the first group convinces the ranger of what they want.

Kiosks - what a great idea!

I mentioned this during the comment period for the Management Plan that now governs usage of canyons within the park. Apparently fell on deaf ears. I even provided an example of how at Mr Ranier they were using them to print out camping permits where rangers were not always present. Maybe our application would be a little bit more extensive but then again...

However, even with them in place there is no guarantee of success, for example.

At Bryce Canyon we had terminals at the lodge, visitor center, camp store and even out at Ruby's Inn that provided info the tourists could access to assist in planning their trips. So what failed? Software, electricity, hardware? None of these. Some damn tourists kept stealing the ball out of the mouses.

Keep addressing the problem and keep presenting alternates ways of doing business and maybe, just maybe the system will be changed or improved.

bruce from bryce
"retired but not inactive"

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Originally Posted by Odie_Canyon

I am surprised how many "tourists" show up early in the morning to pickup permits for the Narrows and the West Rim. The first 4 groups in line are almost always for Subway and Mystery; which means someone is going back to bed...

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Oh let me guess there is only one employee there in the morning?

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Evey time I have gone early for permits there are two rangers. And knowing what I want, I am usually done and gone before the first group convinces the ranger of what they want.

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There were two rangers this morning. Being the second in line, behind a Subway guy, I managed to get seen straight away. I managed to keep the conversation somewhat businesslike:

"Five for Mystery tomorrow please"
"Have you been here before?"
"Yes, but I've not done Mystery before"
...he finds me on the system and verifies my details.
"Have you checked the weather?"
"Yes, and I'll check it again before we leave"
"Do you have a route description?"
"Yes, I have beta and two 120 foot ropes and a 200 foot rope"
That answer seemed to instantly satisfy him, because his facial expression lit up and at that point he just printed out the permit sheet, I signed, and was on my way. The whole thing took about 2 minutes, which presumably pleased the next person in line.

From the conversations I overheard while waiting though, there were a lot of people there who didn't seem to know much about the canyon they wanted a permit for. Almost everyone was there for The Subway.

I'm a newbie to this forum, but we did Imlay three days ago. I walked in to the Permit office the day before and got the permit after a 15 minute wait. One thing they could do at the desk, is change the sign above which says "Backcountry Information" to Backcountry Permits only". Because every time I have been for a permit, there have been people in line in front of me simply seeking info about hikes that they could have gotten at the other info desk.By the way, Imlay was awesome, half full, with 3 hooks and one pack toss. 8-1/2 hours from Grotto into the Narrows with 4 people, starting on the right Sneak route.