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I prefer using 8mm lines to pull cords but thats another subject. If you have to connect 2 ropes together for a contingency anchor, start the knot(bend) On the rappel side of the biner, problem solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ
Sure would hate doing rescue work with a 6mm line.
Shane is part of the 90%, and considers himself experienced. I go with the 10% / 90% breakdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Tom :moses:
Nay.... I've never claimed any technical skills.... I agree that I'm just a hacker......Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
My deal is I think you "experienced" guys try and make this stuff way to complicated. It's just hiking, swimming and sliding down ropes. This is not some extreme sport.... even if most you "experienced" guys would like the rest of us to believe you are extreme....
:popcorn:
Says the guy staring down into Pleides canyon, nuff said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I'm not an "experienced" guy, but definitely a student of the game.
This is going to sound stupid, but training is expensive...
If the goal is to have people proficient with rope skills that will save lives, why are the classes hundreds of dollars per person? It seems to me that places like Zion or associations like the ACA should be subsidizing and proliferating these courses like crazy! Instructors need to be paid for their time, and equipment needs to be bought, but a profit margin isn't the way to make the outdoor experience safer.
How do we, the canyoneering community, get the training we should have at prices that encourage participation? Large groups generally get discounts, but how much do people really learn in large groups? The reason class sizes in elementary schools are an issue is because it's been proven that kids learn better with individual attention. Aren't we all just children + a few years?
I realize that the price of training should'nt outweigh the lives of my loved ones, friends, or self. I also have to face the fact that food, water, and electricity are more immediate life sustaining needs. (I'm a systems analyst, so yes - electricity is on the list :roll: without it I'd be job-less :mrgreen: )
- in that %90 category and wanting to improve
Mike
I will check out that book "On Rope" but I think having scenarios like this on a regular basis is a great idea to make people think about things that we might otherwise not be prepared for. Maybe some of the experienced guys can put up some scenarios based on real past experiences.
My idea for this scenario was to rap down and assist but the contingency anchor idea sounds easy, will have to read into that. Anyone care to share more information about how this would be done exactly?
There are free workshops, heck Tom Jones used to run some in Salt Lake when he lived there (well sort of, you needed to join the area group for 15 bucks a year or something like that). There are bogley fests that I assume have some instruction going on. Some instruction happens at various other fests during the year. Keep your eyes out - or even organize one.
The structured classes are worth it and usually count toward ACA certification. It costs a lot to do these for a living... I had the pleasure of attending a North Wash Outfitter calss, very much worth the special attention and patience of the instructors. And, by the way, NWO trains you to rig an anchor the muenter style so that this scenrio is taken care of before the problem happens.
Training is expensive, but it's Scott Cards fault!! No not really his, but kinda.
By the time we pay insurance and permit fee's to landowner's, the profit in a $200 day is greatly diminished. Add into that overhead with wear and tear on gear and the profit dwindles even more.
Just so you know--I'm not aware of anyone becoming wealthy from teaching any level of canyoneering classes.
I used to teack skiing in Park City in the early 80's. At that time private lessons were in the $150 a day range, if I recall(getting old)
Really it comes down to maybe a once in a lifetime fee, or at the worst case once every couple of years.
I'd view it as an investment if you really enjoy the sport. Wishing you had the knowledge when your in a severe bind in the canyon will make it appear cheap.
Harness--$100
Rope-- $200
rappel device--$40
Watching your loved one die in front of you because you have no idea how to help them----PRICELESS
By the way---If your a member of the ACA--a $50 lifetime fee. You are entitled to Basic Skills Workshops(BSW) for a nominal $5 fee, any time you want to attend one. This is a very good building block to start moving into more technical aspects at a later time. I just taught one in Moab last weekend before a Rendezvous we had over there. There was one 2 weeks ago in SLC. I'm thinking they will be more available in the future.
I think Tom teaches on a daily basis around Zion also(ZAC), several avenues, all require some investment.
Jerid Hillhouse(Northwash Outfitters) in Bluff
Rick green in Escalante(Excursions of the Escalante)I think is the correct name
I offered my BSW in Moab to bogley members for free and got zero responses.
http://www.canyoneering.net/content/...2_articleid=80Quote:
Originally Posted by twebb
If you don't know how to rig a munter or a mule learn it. Very useful. You can descend on a munter if you forget, drop your rap device. Went climbing with Bo Beck and when it came time to rap he couldn't find his device so he went off a munter.
Cool thanks. I know how to use the munter, used it today for a rappel actually. I just didn't know how to incorporate it into an anchor, will read this article thanks alot.
A book that I would strongly recommend is "Self-Rescue" by David J. Fasulo. One of the Falcon Guides. Excellent book, with great illustrations. It's a rock climbing book, but has a lot of transferable skills, knots, techniques. Pick it up, read it, then take it out to a crag, or a tree, or even a telephone pole. Try out the scenarios until you're comfortable with all the skills. (I say, even though I really need to do the same...)
it has been awhile but aren't the roost canyons ground level anchors or "over the lip" starts ? for example, i remember one rap in larry as from a hanging chokstone, w/ the rigging hanging below. so in those situations where you have some hard to access or ground level anchors w/ earth in the way of easy and smooth access how much harder does all this become ? also, is any additional force created on the anchor by adding another person to the rope ?Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Goof
I think your anchoring concerns are spot on. With a rap ring loaded and over the lip, your only option is a new anchor or if you feel good about your current anchor point use it again to rig new webbing. Someone else brought up this same concern earlier in this post, I think it was Brian.
If you need to perform any type of rescue, odds are you will at least double the load on your anchor.
Another good book is "Canyoneering" by David Black a certified instructor and guide.
http://www.overstock.com/Books-Movie...5/product.html
Well, you AND your sister are welcome to sign up for the Bog-fest Sunday Birch Hollow trip, even if it means extending the prior limits. We'll do some training there.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmac
Tom :moses:
I have a question. I've rappelled from ground level anchors, and feel reasonably happy doing that (even if the start hasn't always been elegant). Have never rapped from one that's over the edge though. How does one typically go about starting such a descent? I figure I'd use a safety tether until I was properly on belay, but I guess it still essentially includes downclimbing?Quote:
Originally Posted by goofball
Yes, it does, sometimes you can use the anchor sling to hold onto.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
Probably the most important thing is to have a belay from below (a bottom belay) while you are doing the downclimb, so if you slip, you don't HAVE to grab the rope to keep you from going all the way.
The first person could be given a belay on a separate piece of rope, if you are not doing courtesy belays off of meat anchors.
Tom
Thanks. I think I'll try to get more proficiency rapping from ... kinder anchors for a while before trying too many of those!Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Did you get my email, btw?
Here's my solution assuming he's not on a contingency anchor, conscious, and emotionally under control:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
According to your situation, the rappel is mostly free, but my buddy is not yet to the free part. That means he's less than 50 feet from me. I have at least 50 feet of webbing so we can pass gear. There is also at least 2 strands of 50 foot rope below the rappeller so we can make use of this rope as well.
In order to have him free his hands, I have our stuck rappeller tie knots in the two strands a few feet below his rappelling device. This way when we do get him free, he doesn't plummet to the bottom.
Using my webbing and/or one of the pieces of available rope below the rappeller, depending on the circumstances and how much extra is truly there, use this to transfer his weight onto a new anchor so he can free his now unweighted device. Haul on the secondary line only if necessary, but otherwise a rescue ascender and a prussic will do quite nicely, he only has to jug maybe 3 feet of the new secondary rope from the tag end to right himself and free his now unweighted rappelling device.
Once free, he locks off his rappelling device and unties the safety knots, we re-weight the original system and untie all the secondary stuff, he releases his lock off and resumes the rappel.
Next scenario: same situation except you are already on the ground. Your buddy is stuck above you. The stuck rappeller is not acting rationally and cannot be trusted to follow any instructions, furthermore, he has a knife and is threatening to cut the rope...which will likely make him fall to his death...what do you do?
as a maker-up of scenarios, let me assure you that the victim is not emotionally under control, and is unable to assist in their rescue. If they could right themselves, they would have already done so.Quote:
Originally Posted by nonot
So sorry. Try again.
Tom :moses:
I don't mean to change direction (but I will slightly); is there an advantage to using the Munter/Mule over a figure eight block as a contingency anchor?
Thanks...
Once you learn it well, the Munter Mule is something you will always have with you. The Fig 8 Block requires carrying a Figure 8 of some kind, and having enough to use at all the anchors set up (if you have multiple anchors set up at any one time).Quote:
Originally Posted by pup
Just that. (with a presumption that carabiners are at hand).
T :moses:
So, is there any nice safe trick for the last guy down after everyone else has rapped off the munter? Or is it simply last guy at risk which is all I know...
If you really need a contingency anchor for the final person, could do a bottom-anchor-contingency for the last guy, but this would require 3X rope. If you're that worried about it, a guided rappel might be called for, which requires about the same resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by davehuth
Tom
usually the last guy down will replace the contingency anchor with a biner block or rap double strand. if still need a contingency anchor you can follow tom's advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by davehuth
So much for the easy way out.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
If they are completely unable to assist then you have to go down and get them, cut and lower, or haul them up...with no extra rope cut and lower is not recommended (more like cut and...fall?) and I'll be damned if I'm going to slide down on the weighted rope on a couple of prussics.
So haul them up. Two prussic cords, a handful of biners, and extra webbing is enough to rig a 3 or 5 to 1. Ascenders stay in the bag since it's doubled. Since I carry a lot of extra webbing I'll probably also back up the anchor to a nearby BFR or BFT first it at all possible. Dang and who wanted to sweat and toil on a weekend...
Now can I interest you in carrying a rescue rope? Or perhaps you'd like to changeover to rapping single strand?Quote:
Originally Posted by nonot
Tom :moses:
The problem is that some people were taught to rap double strand and that's all they'll do. You throw one strand down and block it with a clove hitch and you tell them to rap on that. For some reason they immediately believe you to be a lunatic and flat out refuse.
It would be good to teach everyone to rap single strand initially, but it seems everyone learns double strand first because of the extra friction. In the canyon isn't the place to hold a clinic since time is limited.
I think the real lesson here is know thy partner and their abilities and come prepared. If bringing people unable to self rescue then yes, bringing an extra rope and rescue gear is a smart move.
Have never done it, has anyone descended a rope using mechanical ascenders to do a rescue? Or just to go down a loaded rope?Quote:
Originally Posted by nonot
Mark
One of our guides has done it, when he let his rescue rope get ahead of him, and one of the rappellers caught her hair in the Pirana.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Tom
Then carry a rescue rope.Quote:
Originally Posted by nonot
Yes, it is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks. Look at the hold outs like BDC and BB!!!@$%#$%#!! Oh, and Shane. If you have insufficient gravitas to convert people to single rope rappels, then your obligation is to have a rescue rope, and stay at the back where it can be useful, AND train in how to use it.
T
When you do Like Odno 7 and I did in moab and get your rope stuck. Kurt whipped out his rescue rope was able to tie it to the end of our rope that was only as long as the rappel and then change the pull angle enough we got the rope to break loose. When you can only walk a few feet away from the wall with your rope your options are limited. Without that additional rope it would of been a long day.
Since then I haul at least 40' extra with me.
Mark
I always enjoy reading how if you are not doing it Tom's way you are doing it the wrong way....Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
.......there is more than one way to skin a cat....
:popcorn:
For those of you eating cat, I suggest getting Brian Cabe's book "So many cats..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
:popcorn:
Never said you were doing it "wrong", friend Shane. But other people on this forum recognize that if their friends get in trouble on the rope, they would like to be in a position to do something about it.
Tom :moses:
By do something about it..... I assume you mean in addition to laughing and taking pictures?!?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
:five:
Because I'll be honest with ya.... if it's not life threatening that's the first thing I'm going to do if it's one of my friends, wife, kids....
:popcorn: