I don't know and have not asked, but in most cases like this I have seen the venue fee be about 10% of the total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deeps
Tom
Printable View
I don't know and have not asked, but in most cases like this I have seen the venue fee be about 10% of the total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deeps
Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
:roflol:
I'm no lawyer but I do know this.... if you start charging for admittance you open yourself up to liability issues. I'm guessing the fact that ZAC has the ability to cover this guys insurance concerns, does not make a nuisance of themselves, and provide him with a small stipend is why they are allowed to guide the route.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonguru
You guys always have a tendency to focus on the dollars and that is normally only part of the equation.
:cool2:
So what im getting out of this is you need a permit to go down this/these canyons... And to get this permit you need to go through ZAC... and the cost of this permit is $500.00??? lol what??? Did ZAC take lessons from the park on pemits?! Sure sounds like it to me. I have spent well over $1000.00 at ZAC for some reason... Where is my oak creek voucher!!! I thought a few people didnt agree with permit systems?! How much is a tresspassing ticket? May be cheaper than the $500 dollar permit lol. :ne_nau:
I kid... Kinda... I would never treaspass onto private property.
Now if you will excuse me I will step back into my lurking shadows.
:popcorn:
If that's what you are getting you have it wrong..... there are no permits for this route. The route is on private property (allegedly all on Jim Bird's property). ZAC worked out a deal with Bird that allows them to guide on his property. The only way to currently access the canyon is to hire ZAC as your professional canyon guide.Quote:
Originally Posted by frank'n'beans
.
Still sounds like a permit lol. To go down this canyon you have to sign papers, follow someone, and pay them to do so. If you don't follow those directions you MAY be fined.(If caught) Just really sounds like the permit system to me.
:peepwall:
Kind of :lame:
I guess my thing is...... I really don't understand why everyone is picking on ZAC in this deal.... Bird closed his property to canyoneering. ZAC saw an opportunity to make a little coin as a private company and took it, hard for me to fault ZAC for that.
Now should ZAC have tried to negotiate access for all of us? It would have been nice, but that is not their job. Seems to me if the canyoneering community wants access everyone needs to stop bitching and see what can be done to open the route back up. Someone needs to take the lead on this.... Maybe some type of service project each year to clean up the route would get things rolling in a positive direction.
Just my 2 cents....
:popcorn:
Your right Ice I really like all the people at ZAC and their services. But the only way your able to get down that canyon is to pay lots of money that I dont have and I'm sad about that lol. Mabe ZAC could offer a cheaper trip for returning customers!
But its still lame the guy cut off access. Mabe he would be hip to the service project.
I'd still like to see a plot plan of who actually owns what up at Oak Creek.... that would be a great first step for a group seeking access and it should be public record I'd guess... I always take it with a large grain of salt when someone tells me they own everything as far as you can see in either direction....
Someone who combines a soupQuote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I have already had my turn in the barrel.... :haha:
from the Washington County Recorder's Office
http://maps.washco.utah.gov/imf/imf....te=washco_main
My neighbor (though I don't know them personally) owns 12/20ths of the undivided parcel, of which Washington County owns 1/20th, as well as several other people/families. The South Fork/Eye of the Needle I understand is on the undivided 20 acre parcel.
All the beta I have seen enters from the end of the road in Kolob Pines, travels through the church property to the canyon...
I made this from this website:Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
http://maps.washco.utah.gov/imf/imf....te=washco_main
Hopefully I got the right place. :lol8: This is Oak Creek just above where it joins up with Kolob Creek.
Not sure if this helps any but back on toms website it has a map of the surrounding land and plots of who owns them. I am pretty sure thay the Reber piece of land is a very good friend of mine. He has told me that he owns land up there but i never really inquired about it. There are a lot of Reber's in southern utah so that might not be his but when i get a hold of him i will let you guys know. If this is the case can we go to his property and then take the creek down staying in the creek bed?
D'oh! Beat me by a minute. :roflol:
So looking at this.... the route I have posted only crosses LDS Chruch property and is not even close to Bird's property....
Does it look like one could start from BLM land hug the canyon rim of south fork and not even cross Mr. Birds or LDS Camp Kolob land?
Is the kolob pines subdivision gated off or can you drive right to the lds property?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
By reading the byrd email I am betting he thinks or owns the piece that says no owner of record.
Mark
Geez, me too. Especially when they go outside their guide permitted area and do "community service" in some other canyons in Utah. Didn't they clean up some anchors in some canyon...tryin' to think...something about "Mindbender" or some such.Quote:
Originally Posted by frank'n'beans
Maybe folks could return in kind and perform that same public service in the Oak Creek forks? In fact, I remember when someone from ZAC told me that Oak Creek wasn't bolted, and, should stay that way to respect the established route.
I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of natural anchors, or, folks could just use longer ropes in there.
Maybe start with Oak, then move "South"?
Hee hee hee...
-Brian in SLC
ps: great land owner maps!
you can drive right to the gate, but the problem is that you're in the Kolob Pines subdivision which would be considered private. The trick is to just take the time to hike there and park farther away in a spot that does not immediately give you away as a canyoneer. If a low key approach is practiced nobody will know you're in there!Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Does anyone know what lds stake owns this camp? I think our high adveture boys need an adventure.
Mark
I once heard it was out of vegasQuote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Its definately out of vegas. I'm not sure what stake but I know its one of the henderson stakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by trackrunner
Last I heard Camp Kolob is owned by the Logandale stake. It is in the Las Vegas area.
So does ZACS go across theLDS property or a different way? Climb Utah states cutting through the Church property. If cutting through camp kolob are you trespassing on the Bird property? By looking at the map MIA is not exiting on Camp Kolob? Is the MIA on private or public property?
Mark
ZAC uses Mr. Bird's property for ingress and egress.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Cutting through Camp Kolob is trespassing, and their property is posted.
The MIA exit is a long way away, through property owned by another Stake, which grants the public a hiking access as long as they stay away from camp in session, which works easily because the camp is further down the peninsula where people are not interested in going.
Tom
I realize the church prop is posted but if you go in that way are you staying off of birds property? A phone call from one Stake Pres to another can probably get a young mens group permission to cross their camp.
Mark
Has anyone tried doing this?Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Not I, I quit Canyoneering with the Scouts, to much headache and liability.:angryfire:Just go as a group of a couple of Dads and their Boys now.
Does ZAC's still have access?
Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
Zion Adventure Company (ie, ZAC) has access to the Oak Creek canyons via an agreement with the Bird family.
I'm not sure when the renewal date is.
But that other company... ZAC's, must be the ones thats doess guidings nears Zions Nationals Parks, and I ams unfamiliars withs theirs agreementss. :naughty:
Tom
Zax has pretty good pizza though
:fitz::fitz:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
What is the cost to have my hand held thru Oak Creek?
C'mon Mark, you've done a ZAC trip haven't you? We don't hold your hand, we empower you to hold your own hand, and make sure you are holding it at all times.Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
This trip we call an Extreme Adventure Day.
http://www.zionadventures.com/zion-p...yoneering-day/
Tom
looks like it is:Quote:
Originally Posted by moab mark
One on One $695.00 Two or More $395.00 per person Group Discount Not Available
gah... so much $$ to have some one go with you when you know you can do it yourself. I guess some things in life just don't work out the way you wan't them.
The trip is, of course, oriented toward people who cannot do it on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
And, just to be clear, you cannot just go do it on your own, legally, since the canyon and access are on private land.
Tom
yeah that is the problem I guess. In order to experience this section of canyon now, an experienced canyoneer now has to pay a guide $400+ to go. :lame:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Looks like I will need to call up the property manager and reserve the church camp ground for my family. hehehe
Tom, do you have a copy of the map showing land ownersship? I know I've seen one floating around.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia