I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived.

Man, I luv's me a good internet fight that I'm not involved in...

I wore a hole in my cord at a double fisherman's knot. Ok, was on my Prusik cord on my harness, but, still. Left that rig as part of a rappel anchor. I still miss it. My two biners more, though.

Haven't used a double fisherman's to tie ropes together for some time. Still see folks do it, though. I much prefer a flemish bend and will leave a loop on the down side if I might need a clip in point. Unless I'm rappelling free air and then using two tied in ropes to belay with (a sketchy practise for TRin' really long routes), I use an EDK almost exclusively.

As far as using daisy chains to anchor in with, I don't consider one any more.

http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html

I do from time to time consider a Metolius loopy chain anchor thingy (I think Sterling makes one too). Pretty bomber and no loops to bust. Also, bit more "give" than dyneema/spectra. Most often I just anchor in with a simple sewn sling or two.

Anyone use a Purcell Prusik with sewn webbing? The more I play with that style of anchor, the more I like it.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Man, I luv's me a good internet fight that I'm not involved in...

-Brian in SLC

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C'mon. Ya love em even more when you ARE involved, don't cha?

(affectionately)

Tom

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Originally Posted by Darling Felicia

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Yup. That's more or less what she described.

Your picture is from....?

T

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Originally Posted by Sir Tom

Your picture is from....?

T

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The picture is of the anchor at the last rappel in Pine Creek. This is the rigging that the group before us used. They were just about to pull the rope and I took a picture so I could figure it out later.


:-)

It's also a perfectly good use of a knot block as well as a double fisherman(joining 2 unequal diameter ropes)
The prudent group might leave the pull side on top until the last person(we'll call him/her LAMAR) raps, thus eliminating any confusion.
Judging from the photo it may have been equally prudent to rig double strand below the DF, but that might be an entirely different subject(rapping 2 unequal diameter ropes)

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Originally Posted by oldno7

It's also a perfectly good use of a knot block as well as a double fisherman(joining 2 unequal diameter ropes)

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A very good use of the "Sheet Bend" (back up knots as well) is to join two unequal diameter ropes. The "bend" creates less bulk to "hang-up" when pulled over a sharp edge, somewhat flat, similar to the EDK (backed up as well). Granted it is not as bulky as to create as adequate a "block" on its own, such as the DOFK.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Yup. That's more or less what she described.

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Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had. Rapping on the orange rope will not go through the rapide because of a knot block. A binner block could be substituted and do the same job as the knot block here.

I also spy free gear here. Did you take it? (a locking rapide)

Note to mods: this thread probably should be split into two maybe three threads. (1. I fell 106 feet; 2. Are ther issues joining two ropes with a double fishermens or other knots; and maybe 3. "rapping on the pull side" or "issues to watch for rapping SRT" but this could easily be part of discussion on I fell 106 feet.)

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

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Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

This is the rigging that the group before us used.

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Looks like you were following ZNP backcountry rangers... double fishermans and all....

If this is the setup katlin used and she really clipped to the wrong side I can see how the free end feeding through the biner and rapids might have slowed her down some.

:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

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Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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It still would've produced a fall, albeit perhaps a slower fall.

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

Felicia from your pic the pull side is the purple rope. Rapping on that would cause a fall similar to what she had.

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Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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No! Maybe I'm blind but that saftey biner is not clipped to the anchor? :ne_nau: It is clipped to the rap strand. Rapping on the purple rope would cause a fall! Now if the saftery biner is clipped to the anchor then rapping on the pull strand would not cause a fall (assuming the pull strand is normal rope and doesn't have webbing at the end to extend the pull like Katlyin had). The last person has to unclip the saftery biner, and make sure to rappel on the rap side.

Kurt does have a good point. Leave the pull strand at the top in a rope bag. Clear as to wihch strand to rap on, only one. Last person down clips the rope bag to harness and raps.

ya you guys are right. I didn't notice it wasn't clipped into the anchor, pretty big oversight on my part.

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

I also spy free gear here. Did you take it? (a locking rapide)

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Why are the slings and 2 rapides there? What's wrong with going through the anchor ring?

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

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Originally Posted by Felicia

Why are the slings and 2 rapides there? What's wrong with going through the anchor ring?

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The slings and two rapids are used to tie the two anchors together. Your picture fails to show the second anchor located directly about the bottom anchor.

The idea is to have two of everything in the system so if one item fails you have a complete back-up.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg

[quote=Felicia]Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

Ice beat me to it. I had a big long responce to answer your question.

[quote=Felicia]

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Originally Posted by Jaxx

Actually it wouldn't because they clipped the knot into the rap side. If the ranger had set up hers in this manner she would have felt silly for clipping in the wrong side and made it down, mabey faster because of the diameter.

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Based on a recent thread (somewhere - *lol*) I now understand that by clipping the knot into the rap side acts as back-up if the knot slipped through. Is this correct? It seems to me that even if the knot passed through, the biner would not

A little more food for thought here... I'm thinking the CP canyoneering community might be a lot safer if more people were using toss-n-go and rapping double strand.... I'm a big supporter of the KISS system..... I believe this is particularly true with beginners and intermediates..... Every additional step in the system is one more item you can screw up.

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Felicia

Does this picture reflect the rigging that she was attempting to set-up on the last rap?

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Looks like the purple sling and an extra rapide that could be considered booty. The purple sling is litter, and SHOULD be removed, as it gets in the way of inspecting the anchor, and is an inappropriate color. :nono:

A second rapide? Well, people seem to like em, not sure why. Once in a while we get those gravity pulses where gravity goes up by 20X and un-backed-up 8000 lb rapides break, but they are pretty rare. :lol8:

Tom :moses:

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Originally Posted by Darling Iceaxe

Yes, by clipping back into the rope the system can not pull through...

....and to toss a little cheese into the rat infested darkness.... if Keith Beidermann had of rigged his Heaps rappel like this his system would not have failed.... maybe something to learn from these accidents...

Correct, last person has to rig the rope so it will pull...

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There are other, more productive things to learn from Keith's demise. Like, spending the night at the top of the last raps when exhausted is a better choice than heading down in the dark.

Hopefully, most of us have already figured out that if you screw up your rigging, you could die.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Gandolf nee Iceaxe

A little more food for thought here... I'm thinking the CP canyoneering community might be a lot safer if more people were using toss-n-go and rapping double strand.... I'm a big supporter of the KISS system..... I believe this is particularly true with beginners and intermediates..... Every additional step in the system is one more item you can screw up.

:cool2:

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I guess we will continue to disagree on that, Ice, but I think we can both agree that people should know what they are doing, no matter what techniques they choose to use.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Sir Tom

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Originally Posted by Gandolf nee Iceaxe

A little more food for thought here... I'm thinking the CP canyoneering community might be a lot safer if more people were using toss-n-go and rapping double strand.... I'm a big supporter of the KISS system..... I believe this is particularly true with beginners and intermediates..... Every additional step in the system is one more item you can screw up.

:cool2:

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I guess we will continue to disagree on that, Ice, but I think we can both agree that people should know what they are doing, no matter what techniques they choose to use.

Tom

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Thanks guys! If everyone agreed, life would be boring. :mrgreen:

I see both sides of the argument. At this time I will stay on Shane's side of the line, but when more knowledgeable and confident, I would like to move to Tom's side. A big part of the canyoneering experience for me is the gear and use thereof.

My progression started with long ropes doubled over or two roped tied together. I always double line rapped to begin with. It was safe where we went, it was easy to configure and there wasn

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

There are other, more productive things to learn from Keith's demise...

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Unfortunately for everyone, some of the people involved on the day of the accident may never learn some of the bigger lessons in life.

Kaitlyn, wish you the best
EW

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Originally Posted by wiese

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

There are other, more productive things to learn from Keith's demise...

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Unfortunately for everyone, some of the people involved on the day of the accident may never learn some of the bigger lessons in life.

Kaitlyn, wish you the best
EW

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Edit*** nevermind.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/dsc04434.jpg

Not rigging for contingency?

Pull cord side doesn't have a knot in it? And is full length?

I just don't understand why folks aren't just rappelling double strand in this situation. Better friction. Less chance of wear and tear on the rope.

If you're not really rigging for a contingency and you have a single 60m rope, why wouldn't you rig for a double rappel?

I'd think that last rappel in Pine Creek should be standard to thread a single 60m rope, doubled, through the anchor and rappel double strand. Double check prior to launch that you have both strands in your ATC/rappel device, and, if folks aren't saavy on the steep rappel thing, put them on belay from above with another rope.

We'll continue to see accidents with the biner/knot block method of single strand rappelling. There's been how many now at the final rappel in Pine Creek? A couple. And, in other locations in Zion too, fatalities and close calls.

Sure, nice to have in the tool box, but, its been over promoted IMHO.

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle. I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
The problem seems to be with the biner block and why people do this is beyond me, but they block the rope and then drop the pull down side right then. Why??? It makes no sense to me. We use a biner on about every rappel and the last guy, who should be the most exp. drops the pull when it is his turn.
Thanks
Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Brian,

I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
Thanks
Mark

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We pre-mark the middle of all our ropes. There is a special ink marker that you can purchase for this task.

:2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

My imlay 200 won't double

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Then it's not a 200... :haha:

Just for the record.... we measured the drop at 96 feet.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

We pre-mark the middle of all our ropes. There is a special ink marker that you can purchase for this task.

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I just make the center of my ropes with a Sharpie.

:cool2:

I've tried both the ink and a sharpie and they both wear off pretty quick, seems to be gone in about one trip.
Mark

I blacken out about a 9" section of rope, a small section doesn't work so hot as it does wear off some. With 9" marked I can always see the mid-point. If it gets hard to see I just whip out my trusty Sharpie and mark it again.

Now.... guess how I know that I marked exactly 9"????..... :roflol:

By the size of your foot? :bootyshake: :roflol:

:lol8:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle. I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
Mark

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You match the ends.

Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is now at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.

Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.

T

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

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Originally Posted by moab mark

My imlay 200 won't double

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Then it's not a 200... :haha:

Just for the record.... we measured the drop at 96 feet.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

We pre-mark the middle of all our ropes. There is a special ink marker that you can purchase for this task.

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I just make the center of my ropes with a Sharpie.

:cool2:

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Q: How long is a 200 foot rope?

A: It depends.

My ropes are about 202 feet when new, but they tend to shrink. How much? Hard to say.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle. I do not know what it is about that spot but I do not like to hang out over that edge to see if the ends are on the ground. So how do you easily half the rope?
Mark

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You match the ends.

Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is not at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.

Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.

T

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What about a double biner block? Any disadvantages? We did that with a large group on this rap last summer and zipped folks (safely) down in short order. We actually used both strands and went single line. By the time the person at the top got their courage up and hooked up, the other person had touched bottom. I was able to fireman belay both sides of the rope. Comments? Helmet is on.

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Brian,

On the last rappel of pine creek ...

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Match the ends. Dump the rope out into a pile. Put one end through the ring, find the other end, then match them. Pull both strands through one hand taking care that they go through at the same rate. On this rappel, you can just send the ends over the edge. Continue pulling "matched", fighting any snarls that come up, until you get to the middle, which is not at the ring. Rope is halved and hanging.

Me, I'd put in a Stone knot at this point to double block it, but that's just me.

T

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What about a double biner block? Any disadvantages? We did that with a large group on this rap last summer and zipped folks (safely) down in short order. We actually used both strands and went single line. By the time the person at the top got their courage up and hooked up, the other person had touched bottom. I was able to fireman belay both sides of the rope. Comments? Helmet is on.

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So a double-clove hitch (ie, with both strands) on a biner? Big Biner? Sounds good. Can also just tie off each side and clip up to the anchor itself. Helps to get the start point as high as possible - easiest start for the noobs.

Tom

With my rope management skills dumping 200 ft out on the ground then feeding would become the biggest spaghetti mess known to man.
My ropes will double on that rappell but both ends are off the ground. The only times we double is if using stone knot to rappel both strands (best knot Tom ever taught me) or if the last guy down is nervous about the pull. A double 9 mm wet pretty much sucks to rappel on.
Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

On the last rappel of pine creek the height is pretty close to 100 ft. My imlay 200 won't double, and you cannot see the bottom from the anchor. So how do you double the rope when you have to hit pretty close to the middle.

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I do what Tom suggests if I have to exactly hit the middle. I start by flaking the rope into a pile, keeping track of either end. Then, feed one end of the rope through the rapides, match ends, and start pulling the rope through and lower it down, whilst making sure that each side doesn't slip by maintaining a pretty tight grip on both sides of the rope as you feed the one side through the rapides.

I also have a couple of other methods I use. I deploy rope a bunch. So, its always a game to me to see if I can nail a drop, by sight, with the exact amount of rope. So, I'd probably start this game at the last drop by taking one rope end, feeding it through the rapide, then pulling through the amount I think would hit bottom, and piling that initially in a stack on the ledge. Then I'd probably fix myself to the anchor, lean out, and lower both ends and see how close I got. Sometimes I toss it off, but, when deploying the full rope, I like to feed it in stages from the ends so it won't get fussy (nothing worse than a tangle on a free hanging rappel).

I can kinda measure out rope by knowing the distance, and, my wing span is around 6 feet, so, for 100 feet, I'll measure off 20 5 foot lengths, give or take, to initially estimate the amount of rope that needs to be out.

Bi-colored ropes are super nice. Middle marks can be nice, but, they wear out and are sometimes super hard to see (that "anthracite" color Mammut rope for instance). Also, there's been a number of accidents (fatalities) when folks mistake a "near end" mark for the middle as of late, and, my bet is that rope folks won't be marking the near ends anymore.

Another trick I do, which, I'm guessing I won't recommend to most folks, is that it isn't that important to exactly nail the middle of the rope on especially that rappel. I switch to a two handed break hand near the bottom if the ends aren't matched, and, will "take" on the short end and let the long end run through the rapides at the top if the ends aren't matched. This takes practise to feel comfy with, but, in actuality I do it all the time so it works for me. For most steep rappels from super solid anchors like fat rapides, the rope can move a bit on those anchors and not be a problem. You wouldn't want to do that on a sling only rappel!! Can be a nice technique to deploy on the fly. Sure beats riggin' a Prusik and stopping to fix the problem, especially free hanging.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Another trick I do, which, I'm guessing I won't recommend to most folks, is that it isn't that important to exactly nail the middle of the rope on especially that rappel. I switch to a two handed break hand near the bottom if the ends aren't matched, and, will "take" on the short end and let the long end run through the rapides at the top if the ends aren't matched.

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I use this method a lot. particularly on a rappel like the final Pine Creek. I think Brian was the first to show it to me many moons ago. It's really simple and easy once you are comfortable with it. It also really speeds things up because you just get the length's kinda close and go.

:rockon: