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I see your point. However, I think my inclination would be to inform the park as soon as I possibly could if I were in this situation. Maybe they could help, or maybe they'd just stand by until the rain stopped. The ranger station is only two miles away, maybe five minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Any canyon with a huge catch basin located miles away out of visual range is very dangerous. The two canyons that always cause me concern are Heaps and Imlay because you are in the belly of the beast for such a long time with few place to hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
I agree, but some people take a lot longer than that.Quote:
Anyone with moderate canyoneering skills can do the technical section of Keyhole in under 10 minutes.
I would agree with that too, even if you said it harshly. There were flash flood warnings out and the rangers informed them of this too. Condolences to the families though.Quote:
I hate to say this with the recent tragedy, but the only reason for a death in Keyhole is lack of commonsense.
Dangerous for sure, but unless they are full, in theory a flash flood is going to move much slower through Heaps and Imlay than it will in a drainage without check dams (i.e. potholes in Heaps and Imlay). As you said though, it takes a long time for canyoneers to get through those ones so the danger is extreme. I wouldn't want to be in any canyon when it flash floods, especially in Heaps or Imlay. If you did get hit by a big one in either of those, unless you caught caught in a strainer, it is likely that pieces of bodies, rather than bodies would be found.Quote:
The two canyons that always cause me concern are Heaps and Imlay because you are in the belly of the beast for such a long time with few place to hide.
FWIW- The rangers at the entrance station are not backcountry rangers and do not possess their skill set and training. They are usually the low man on the totem pole and would probably be of little help outside of their communication gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
I was descending the west rim trail that day with family and can say this about the weather. It rained most the night before and you could see it storming throughout zion from the rim. It appeared the east side was taking the brunt of it although at campsite 1, I didnt have a good view of the west. On our way down in the am there was moderate rain from about 9-11am. I saw three moderate waterfalls in refrigerator canyon but never saw it flood lower down. The skies did clear for a bit but you could see another system building in the distance. The forecast was calling for at least 50% chance of rain and thunderstorms starting at noon and it was very believable when looking up. It did not look like a reasonable day for any canyon in my opinion. The terrain was well soaked so it likely wouldn't take much additional rain to flash.
I met a man from California on the way down the trail who said he has some friends taking a day course and were planning a run through keyhole later that day to reinforce the course . I hope it wasn't his group. My parents and I were disappointed to skip the landing on our way down but weather did not call for it so we bailed.Many people were going up angels during a downpour with thunder all around. It's easy to get caught up in the moment and seeing hundreds go up the trail can make it hard to listen to the voice of reason whether it's a hike or canyon.
Condolences to family and friends for your loss.
The group was made up of Californians and Nevadans. Very possible that it was his group. Sad sad sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonFreak
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Makes me feel sick to my stomach and sad for these people and their families. Have had many great runs through keyhole with friends and family. It's sad but true that this could have been avoided. My condolences to the families.
Please be safe people!
Going through Kolob next week, weather and water level permitting of course.
On Monday i got this email notification.
WaterAlert. 2240 cfs, 'NORTH FORK VIRGIN RIVER NEAR SPRINGDALE, UT'
Streamflow of 2240 cfs exceeds subscriber threshold of 150 at 2015-09-14 17:45:00 MDT
09405500 00060 NORTH FORK VIRGIN RIVER NEAR SPRINGDALE, UT
Notification interval, no more often than: Daily
For Realtime Data at this station:
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv/?site_no=09405500
That is a crazy amount of water coming down the Narrows. The Virgin is a wild river.
I got the same alert for the 2240 CFS on the virgin and hoped that no one was in the canyons.
When I told my wife about this tragic situation and commented that they should have known better she reminded me of the time I was going through Mystery with a group of newbies while she waited at the visitor center. She saw thunder and lighting and worried the whole time. We had only blue sky and not a drop of rain. It was very localized so it can be hard to tell at times. Keyhole does have a short drainage so it must have really poured.
I am so sorry for the loss. Heart wrenching.
Here are a few pictures I snagged from Google Earth showing the drainage, canyon, and waypoints of Keyhole Canyon, for those unfamiliar with it:
EDIT: the pictures have been re-sized automatically, hence that's why they are hard to read. But if you click on the pics, it should open to a much bigger picture.
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Edit: @Sombeech, anyway I can make these pictures bigger here? On my PC they are much bigger, but here...much smaller.
Sure, we could experiment with different sizes now that the majority of Desktop users are viewing at 1920 X 1080 on widescreen. We decided on 800 wide a few years ago because any bigger was getting the sidebars and avatar columns all overlapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
The template is responsive though, so the content shrinks/grows with the internet browser width, but the images will cap out at 800 wide at the moment.
For now, just right click on the image, open in a new tab, and hold Control and scroll with the mouse wheel to zoom in and out. Then resize back to your preferred browser zoom level when done.
We'll look at some stats and see what the majority of users are viewing the site with. We haven't done that for a long long time.
I assume they had cleared the tourists out of the Narrows. I'll bet it was bad there too.
FWIW- Pin 3/3 is at the first rappel which separates the upper scramble section from the lower technical section in Keyhole. Pin 3/3 is also an escape that allows you to exit out the south side for a 5 minute walk back to your car.
The google Earth KMZ file for Keyhole is available here for anyone that wants to play around with it.
Keyhole Canyon - KMZ
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/keyhole.htm
And here is a video of the canyon for those that have never done it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzqSfMjJHfk
Two of the deceased, Sheriff Steve Arthur, 58, and his wife Linda, are the first to be identified. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/l...loods-33792078
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09...aa1e174af5.jpg
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The dead are/were noobies. My understanding is the permit was in the name of Sheriff Steve Arthur and it was the first Zion permit he had ever obtained.
Zion National Park explains backcountry permit rules following flash flood deaths
https://audioboom.com/boos/3582900-z...h-flood-deaths
Take this with a grain of salt, but one report said that they got their permit in the morning, and then went and took a canyoneering class before doing the canyon, which is why they went in the afternoon.Quote:
The dead are/were noobies. My understanding is the permit was in the name of Sheriff Steve Arthur and it was the first Zion permit he had ever obtained.
People are being rather tight lipped, but I have seen different members of the community on the various forums state that they had personal encounters with the late canyoneers on the day of. One poster said they spoke to one of the deceased on the west rim trail the day of, another was in Keyhole with the seven prior to the incident, and another found one of the bodies. There has to be someone who instructed the class out there. I'm curious if it was ZAC or similar. I'm sure that would be very sad news to hear the folks you'd just instructed had lost their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villainousturtle
I had the encounter monday on the way down the west rim trail to the grotto with a potential member of the group. He said his friends were taking the course from ZAC that day. I'm not saying for certain this is the same person involved with the group but he did have some canyoneering experience, probably why he wasn't taking the class and day hiking instead that morning.
He made it seem like the others were beginners or had little to no experience as the article suggests. In making small talk about the west rim trail he mentioned that the 5th canyon he ever did was heaps. He was a pleasant and friendly person who was very enthusiastic about canyoneering. He voiced concern over the weather holding for a Subway permit his group held for tuesday.
Fox13now.com is reporting that the 7th and final body has been recovered at 11:35am today.
So many lives...:cry1: