Das Boot & The Subway

For what it's worth, it is nearly impossible to understand from the NPS website that not 1 but 2 permits are required to descend the Subway via Das Boot.

Zion Park Wilderness Information indicates two ways to hike the Left Fork... one from the bottom and back... and the other way from the top down.

So it would be reasonable to think that an Upper Left Fork (Das Boot) permit would get you a downstream exit. What a rude awakening when the ranger informs you that you don't have permission to complete the Subway. Instead walk your arse back up the canyon.

The permitting of Das Boot and Subway should be made more clear in the website.

Thanks to those of you that have contributed to this thread. Now I know.

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Originally Posted by SlickRock

Now I know.

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And knowing is half the battle.

To add to the confusion, Tom's website says the Russell Gulch approach requires a seperate permit from the normal Subway, but I don't see it on the NPS drop-down menu. Das Boot is there, but no Russell Gulch. What am I missing ?

Do I intepret this correct in that the Russell Gulch permit is only avaiable at the visitor's center and not online ?

What you're missing is the fact that the bc desk will give permits for more areas/canyons than are on the list. They want to know where and how many people there are in bc. Not necessarily a bad thing. Make up a name of an area in the park, tell how many people and how long you'll be there, and you will probably be given a permit with that info on it. There isn't a separate permit for Russel Gulch, just that bit of info (that you are going directly down the gulch) on the normal Subway permit. Anyway that's how we did it last Fall.

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Originally Posted by deagol

Do I intepret this correct in that the Russell Gulch permit is only avaiable at the visitor's center and not online ?

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PLEASE do not start asking for a Russel gulch permit, your subway permit covers it. This is exactly how the das boot permits got so f**ked up.

Taylor,
Thanks, that makes sense...

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

PLEASE do not start asking for a Russel gulch permit, your subway permit covers it. This is exactly how the das boot permits got so f**ked up.

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From Tom's website: "Russell Gulch requires an additional permit to your Subway permit, has a group size limit of 6 and a daily quota of 12".

But I see your point. Ugggg:facepalm1:

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Originally Posted by deagol

From Tom's website: "Russell Gulch requires an additional permit to your Subway permit, has a group size limit of 6 and a daily quota of 12".

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It's on the internet.... it must be true. :roll:

Tom's website is wrong... but the park will issue a permit if you ask... the park will issue you a permit, and charge you for anything if you ask.... which is the point I've been trying to make.

To do the Subway.... Russel Gulch is IS the standard entrance.... and you do not need a special permit if you decide to avoid the walk around...

FWIW: Shane's website says you don't need a seperate permit. :bootyshake:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

It's on the internet.... it must be true. :roll:

Tom's website is wrong... but the park will issue a permit if you ask... the park will issue you a permit, and charge you for anything if you ask.

To do the Subway.... Russel Gulch is IS the standard entrance.... and you do not need a special permit if you decide to avoid the walk around...

FWIW: Shane's website says you don't need a seperate permit.

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OK, we won't get an additional permit, sounds like an unnessisary extra step to me anyways...
But it is weird the way people "in the know" disagree on things like this.

I know the NPS charges for things they don't need to. Rocky Mt NP did the same for me a while back, but that's another story.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Anyhoo.... it works like this.... if you ask for a permit at the Backcountry desk they will issue you a permit and charge you for it.... EVEN IF A PERMIT IS NOT REQUIRED....
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Shane:
I do not see Hidden Canyon listed on the Backcountry Desk drop down menu for permits. Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

I have assumed, perhaps in error, that ANY trip into the Zion backcountry requires a permit...

Kerry

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

FWIW, you can swim underneath the jammed log in Keyhole falls. It is a tight fit, but all four of us did it. A couple of photos are provided below.

Attachment 54568

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Just for clarification, from your pictures, it looks like you can also swim under the new log jam at the "bowling ball" as well...

Kerry

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Originally Posted by taatmk

Shane:
Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

I have assumed, perhaps in error, that ANY trip into the Zion backcountry requires a permit...

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no he is not saying you don't need a permit if it's not listed in the advance reservation page. you need a permit for any technical canyon route in the park. (though some may argue if the park doesn't know about the route then you shouldn't tell them)

What shane (or at least what I understand his argument to be, he can write it himself) is trying to argue is the "subway" permit is the left fork. trying to state it doesn't matter if you are starting the standard entrance, russel gulch, das boot, wild cat, west rim, from the bottom, or any alternative you can think of, it's still the left fork. So why not get a permit for just the left fork.

now if subway was booked and you wanted to do das boot by it self then you could get that permit separately for that portion.

some would disagree with shane's argument. but that is the problem of the permit system with so many entrances to a route which one is Primitive Zone vs Pristine Zone when it's the same drainage.

I'm not arguing one position over the other. I'll let others duke it out trying to prove someone wrong on the internet. Just clarifying the argument being made here.

Clear as mud now?

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Originally Posted by taatmk

Shane:
I do not see Hidden Canyon listed on the Backcountry Desk drop down menu for permits. Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

I have assumed, perhaps in error, that ANY trip into the Zion backcountry requires a permit...

Kerry

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I have encouraged the Park to add more canyons to the reservation list, but...

Any hiking with ropes in a canyon in Zion requires a wilderness permit, as does any descent of the Narrows or Orderville or the Subway.

Don't let Shane's bluster confuse you. Shane makes some good points about how to work around the rules, how to cheat, lie and steal, while my website states what the rules are. The NPS bureaucracy works by simple rules; those are the rules. It is your choice whether to follow the rules or not, but please allow me to encourage you to follow the rules.

Tom

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Originally Posted by taatmk

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Originally Posted by Slot machine

http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/b...post-right.png

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Originally Posted by Slot machine

FWIW, you can swim underneath the jammed log in Keyhole falls. It is a tight fit, but all four of us did it. A couple of photos are provided below.

Attachment 54568

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Just for clarification, from your pictures, it looks like you can also swim under the new log jam at the "bowling ball" as well...

Kerry

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Some people use different names for the various obstacles. I try to follow the oldest source I know of, the Brereton and Dunaway. The obstacle pictured with the log jam is known as the Bowling Ball.

Keyhole Falls is a little later, the 10 foot drop with the small arch on the left that can be downclimbed through. It seems unlikely there is a crawl-under at Keyhole Falls.

Tom

From NPS website:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Trip Information
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Resource Area:
[/TH]
[TD]Left Fork North Creek (SUBWAY)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Resource Information:
[/TH]
[TD]Expect cold, higher water. Wear thick wetsuits. Do not jump! Use a rope and harness. Bring a map and route description. Use slickrock, do not create new trails.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Trip Start Date:
[/TH]
[TD]Tuesday, August 28, 2012
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Number in Party:*
[/TH]
[TD]1234
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Reservation Fee:
[/TH]
[TD]$
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]100% of the fees go to Zion National Park
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Select one itinerary from below*
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Subway Round Trip from Left Fork(bottom) Trailhead
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: daydisplay"]Left Fork Trailhead (Subway) [B](Begin Trip)

One reason the Park is reluctant to provide any information on other routes is because it encourages people. They prefer Visitors to stay on the same 6 or 8 routes, and not 'explore new ground'.

It is also not their job to let you know what is available. That is my job, or your job to go find out.

Tom

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Originally Posted by taatmk

I do not see Hidden Canyon listed on the Backcountry Desk drop down menu for permits. Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

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If it requires a rope you need a permit.

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

What shane (or at least what I understand his argument to be, he can write it himself) is trying to argue is the "subway" permit is the left fork. trying to state it doesn't matter if you are starting the standard entrance, russel gulch, das boot, wild cat, west rim, from the bottom, or any alternative you can think of, it's still the left fork. So why not get a permit for just the left fork.

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YES and NO.... your permits does declare a trailhead. When you pick up a standard Subway permit you can the trailheads.... at least that is what we once did with a Subway permit... we told them we were entering a lava Point, they marked it, and we were good to go.... Now if a Full Left Forks starts to be an issue (I doubt it ever will, that is a loooong haul) things could change.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Don't let Shane's bluster confuse you. Shane makes some good points about how to work around the rules, how to cheat, lie and steal, while my website states what the rules are. The NPS bureaucracy works by simple rules; those are the rules. It is your choice whether to follow the rules or not, but please allow me to encourage you to follow the rules.

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If guys like you keep f**king around and telling folks to get permits that are not required soon you will create an even bigger mess than what you have started.... just what we need.... additional permits required for those that want to skip the walk-around, which is what Russel Gulch is.

What next? a special "canyonman" permit for those that do the bowling ally walk around? Geez.... have some commonsence.... I mean after all... Das Boot is a story... and since canyonman skipped the bowling alley and rapped back in should that now be a special permit? I mean really.... Canyonman was also a great story......

There is a "Das Boot" portion of the Subway that has been treated as distinct by canyoneers. I didn't know of Pitney's story when we did it, though I likely did it with Ram and/or Pitney the first time. The story went public years after I explored the drainage. I have always considered it a different canyon and about half the time hike out above the Subway.

That said, policy wise, it seems odd and completely unique to treat the main stem of a canyon as fundamentally two drainages. Anywhere else that this happens in canyoneering?

There are benefit and negatives to that approach. It is an immense benefit to have the drainage as separate on the days the Subway is sold out (which has never happened the times I wanted to do the hike). It sucks though to have add even more policy.

I disagree with Shane in the interpretation of current policy (and its history). It seems obvious to me that the park has designed the system for the drainage to be two separate permits, for good or bad. It seems like trying to advise people it isn't such hurts us in the long run and just appears to be gaming the system.

Phillip