Beta for Trail Canyon

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"About 500m beyond R2 will be the narrowest part. At one point you'll have to UC
about 2m to pass a narrow spot. After that, and just before the slot ends, will
be a place where only the skinniest folk can pass; everyone else will
have to chimney up a meter or two..." Tech Slot Guide 2nd
Ed.

Climb-Utah's beta http://climb-utah.com/Powell/trail1.htm mentions a much
higher degree of skills required.

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Neither route description is inaccurate (other than perhaps the 2m thing); it's just one is more detailed than the other (one paragraph vs several). That is the main difference. MK didn't say the climb is easy. He didn't say it was hard either. He just said that you will have to chimney, which is correct. If MK rates a canyon as PG, X or R (which Trail is rated as such) in his book, then the majority of the time it means that it required a more than beginner skill level.

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Originally Posted by Scott P

If MK rates a canyon as PG, X or R (which Trail is rated as such) in his book, then the majority of the time it means that it required a more than beginner skill level.

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Opps, I totally overlooked the rating when I was checking this out. North Fork Trail: 3B II PG SLOT.

I appreciate everyone's input on this, you have been most helpful.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Mr. K tends to think any upclimb he CAN do is fairly easy.

Personally, I find that upclimb rather challenging. I'd call it 5.9. Not too exposed or dangerous; and not all that easy to provide an assist to someone else on. I think I've done the upclimb 3 or 4 times, and gone through the bottom once. Sometimes going through the bottom is "enhanced" by there being deepish water down there. The narrowest part is a section going UPhill, and is the scene of several famous helmet-stack incidents. (A small person positions a stack of helmets in JUST the right place, for the fatty in the canyon to step up onto.)

Mmmmmmmmmm. Now the question is, how much beta do you need. right foot on that bump there, and...

This ties into another discussion - are we really at the stage where people need this much beta for a canyon? This is a philosophical question - we can tell you all sorts of things about the canyon, but we can't tell you how it will be for you on the particular day you have in mind...

My personal philosophy is that canyoneering is about adventure. Looking at Shane's and Mr. K's beta, you have enough information. Enough to be somewhat cautious, plenty to go in there and find out - hard or easy; or maximum struggle! Now you're talking!!!

Tom

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I guess I should be more specific next time. I was really just looking for a description of the approach and where to drop in. Also where to find maps. (although I have some now) and water conditions. Thanks for all the thechnical information though still! I'm excited to experience it!:mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Personally, I find that upclimb rather challenging. I'd call it 5.9. Tom

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Tom, Shane, love the beta but these climbing ratings I read seem kinda, what's the word?, inaccurate. What standard ru using? Are they canyoneering ratings? I climb a fair bit, not really that good, and doing a 5.9 trad climb up, or down, WITH rock shoes can be pretty dang challenging (except for 1/2 of Boulder it seems, which does nothing for my ego). And for Trail people r doing a 5.9 free solo climb, no pro, wearing approach shoes that may be wet and sandy?? Is it just me? :duel:

PS: Can somebody pleazzzze run thru Trail b4 I hit it and clean out all the spiders! I hate spiders. And the snakes too. Just kinda clean it up for me if u could. Thanks

Alan

We've been invaded!!!

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Originally Posted by bigred72

We've been invaded!!!

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We should be good for right now....all fixed!

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Originally Posted by flatiron

Tom, Shane, love the beta but these climbing ratings I read seem kinda, what's the word?, inaccurate. What standard ru using? Are they canyoneering ratings? I climb a fair bit, not really that good, and doing a 5.9 trad climb up, or down, WITH rock shoes can be pretty dang challenging (except for 1/2 of Boulder it seems, which does nothing for my ego). And for Trail people r doing a 5.9 free solo climb, no pro, wearing approach shoes that may be wet and sandy?? Is it just me? :duel:

PS: Can somebody pleazzzze run thru Trail b4 I hit it and clean out all the spiders! I hate spiders. And the snakes too. Just kinda clean it up for me if u could. Thanks

Alan

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I think that you are imagining this to be much harder and scary than it really is. I really don't think that it is close to 5.9, although it is awkward. In any case, it is nothing like a real climb. It is two kind of hard moves to get up about 5 feet, all above a sandy floor. A partner assist can be used here.

Nat

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Originally Posted by flatiron

Tom, Shane, love the beta but these climbing ratings I read seem kinda, what's the word?, inaccurate. What standard ru using? Are they canyoneering ratings? I climb a fair bit, not really that good, and doing a 5.9 trad climb up, or down, WITH rock shoes can be pretty dang challenging (except for 1/2 of Boulder it seems, which does nothing for my ego). And for Trail people r doing a 5.9 free solo climb, no pro, wearing approach shoes that may be wet and sandy?? Is it just me? :duel:

PS: Can somebody pleazzzze run thru Trail b4 I hit it and clean out all the spiders! I hate spiders. And the snakes too. Just kinda clean it up for me if u could. Thanks

Alan

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I try to do one "rated" rock climb a year, just to stay in touch with the rating system, but it doesn't work. I AM a former Boulder climber, but unfortunately in a past era when 5.9 was hard, and in my five years there I moved from 5.7 to 5.11a - so there was a time when I had the rating system, in that range, DIALLED! :cool2:

YDS ratings always involve some kind of "normal conditions". In canyons that means wearing Canyoneers and being wet and sandy. No chalkbag, hopefully no bolt to pull on.

I wouldn't call it free-solo, I would call it a boulder problem. And a chimney problem at that, which means, especially in this case, that the problem is not falling off but making forward progress. And... while I generally am now a non-climber, my chimney and off-width work is still fairly good (I hope).

No spiders in Trail. Daddy Longlegs are not spiders. Don't worry, be happy! :haha:

Tom

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Originally Posted by nat

I think that you are imagining this to be much harder and scary than it really is. I really don't think that it is close to 5.9, although it is awkward. In any case, it is nothing like a real climb. It is two kind of hard moves to get up about 5 feet, all above a sandy floor. A partner assist can be used here.

Nat

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You're much more in touch with climbing ratings, Nat. What would you rate it, without assistance?

Tom

It has been a few years since I've done Trail, and it is hard to rate a chimney/boulder problem, but it seems to me that it would be quite a bit easier than 5.9 chimneys in Yosemite, such as Moby Dick Left. Maybe if you found those moves in trail on a real climb it could be rated 5.6?

Nat

I have the climbing required rated 5.7 on Climb-Utah. and I consider the first pinch that everyone must climb over to be the hardest of the two climbs. YMMV

At the first pinch your shoes are normally wet and/or muddy and it makes the climb difficult, particularly the start which is a bit awkward.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I have the climbing required rated 5.7 on Climb-Utah. and I consider the first pinch that everyone must climb over to be the hardest of the two climbs. YMMV

At the first pinch your shoes are normally wet and/or muddy and it makes the climb difficult, particularly the start which is a bit awkward.

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Yeah, that's the spot I am thinking of. Could be 5.7, especially with wet feet (as usually the case). It is awkward. I have assisted people up it, though that is also awkward.

Nat

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

The narrowest part is a section going UPhill, and is the scene of several famous helmet-stack incidents. (A small person positions a stack of helmets in JUST the right place, for the fatty in the canyon to step up onto.)



Tom

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Guilty and I prefer the term well nourished...."fatty", well that ain't nice!:haha:

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Guilty and I prefer the term well nourished....

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The new politically correct term is "horizontally gifted".

:lol8:

And I don't even remember the previous spot...

Hmmm, then again, with my memory, I am thinking the spot near the end that I have a clear memory of might be in a different canyon. :crazy:

Tom

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Originally Posted by nat

I think that you are imagining this to be much harder and scary than it really is. I really don't think that it is close to 5.9, although it is awkward. In any case, it is nothing like a real climb. It is two kind of hard moves to get up about 5 feet, all above a sandy floor. A partner assist can be used here.

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Thanks Nat. I was not really worried, more just throwing out a q. I have done several canyons where there was a rated climb and have found it to always be easier, usually quite a bit. Which is good! Concerning a prev thread about beta, I would MUCH rather be told it is wet, cold, hard, 5.9 etc and be prepared than vice versa. Hey, no matter what the beta or word of mouth it is still on me to be ready for battle.

And yes Tom/Nat/Shane I agree, boulder/chimney offwidth stuff is different, more awkward than anything and certainly not any sort of clean face climbing. I actually like the climbing/downcimbing in canyons more than rock. Now if I only lived in SoUtah, sighhhhhhh. Any good jobs down there?

Daddylonglegs not spiders!!! Wow, things you learn on Bogley.

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Originally Posted by Dan-wild

I guess I should be more specific next time. I was really just looking for a description of the approach and where to drop in. Also where to find maps. (although I have some now) and water conditions. Thanks for all the technical information though still! I'm excited to experience it!:mrgreen:

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Yeah, I see that. But it evolved into a very detailed discussion, which I hope is unnecessary for anyone planning on going in there. I also hope most would find it undesirable to have the canyon laid out in immense detail.

Tom :moses: