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Nothing says you were going to get a permit standing in line.... I'd rather pay $30 and not get a permit over standing in line and not getting a permit....Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
But my time is pretty valuable to me... dollar wise $30 works out to about 15 minutes of my time.... but you are right about one thing... not getting a permit sucks! My kids really wanted to do Mystery.
I and a freind applied for Mystery and did not get chosen. A different freind applied for Subway and did get chosen. It was only the 3 of us for each application, so our odds were not very good. I was amazed that my second freind got the Subway permit.
Edit: jeez, iceaxe, I wish I made $120/hour ... :cry1:
As I always tell my kids... it's great to be the king! :bootyshake:
With the numbers game I'm guessing Mystery is the toughest permit to snag in the park.
yeah, I am tired of this being a peasant stuff ......Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I am bummed about Mystery, I've never done it before and live too far from Zion to go there often
This is exactly my gripe with the new permit system! I don't make nearly as much money as you, but now (at least in theory), you can buy yourself a better chance at the permit than I can! This goes against the original intent of the National Parks. They were created for the common people, not just for the wealthy elite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Just because I can't throw around $30 as easily as you, doesn't mean you have more right to use the resource than me.
(This is a gripe at the system, not at you or others that make $120 an hour.)
Huh. You must be reading a different history book than I am. You might notice that they built Grand Hotels at most of those National Parks, not Motel 6's. The Roaring Twenties was one of those times when there was first a leisure class of significant size and wealth to actually create a tourism industry, driven by the railroads. http://canyoneeringcentral.com/canyo...o/history.html (although it does not really address this issue.)Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
You forget, wrangler of canyons, that money is now speech, and some Americans are more equal than others... :crazycobasa::facepalm1::crazy:
Tom
You people need to realize.... nothing has changed as for your chances.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
Under the old system a person of means could hire someone to stand in line for them... I know of a couple guys who were doing this to provide a little extra income. You handed some young college kid $50 to stand in line for your group and you show up at 6:45, the kid blends into your group, you get your permit and everyone is happy and heads their seperate ways. I considered that fair as most other groups had one or two stand in line while the rest were elsewhere. There were a couple of other ways to game the old system, which I'll keep to myself, but they all involved handing over $50 and greatly increasing your chance of getting a permit.
Or as my father told me many times... you can always exchange time for money... or money for time.... but you can't manufacteur one without the other.
So bottomline.... if you have money to throw at a problem your odds of solving the problem increase accordingly.... that has been true through out history and I don't see Zion ever finding a way to eliminate the problem. Folks a lot smarter than government employees have tried for years. In fact... if you can figure out a way of leveling the playing field where money plays no part I can make you a very rich man.
FWIW: just by forcing you to buy a canyoneering and entrance permit the park is catering to the effluent... think of it this way... $100 means a lot more to a guy making $10k than it does to a guy making 100k... so its less of a burden for the rich... see where I'm going with this?
:cool2:
First of all, if given the chance, both of you guys would argue with a brick post. So, I knew this would be the result of my rant. I don't know why I even bothered. However...
Tom, I said that democratic access was the INTENT of the national parks. I never said that that plan had ever been implemented properly. You are correct, overpriced hotel rooms have always been a hallmark of the NPS experience. I am merely lamenting that the same ethos has now been extended to backcountry access. I have not "forgotten" any of the things you claim that I have. I just refuse to "like" those things.
Ice, as a Utah resident I am a last-minute, walk-in permit user. I have never once made a reservation. I pick up my permits one day ahead at the maximum. I figure I can always come back a different weekend. This system has always served me well. Hell, I don't even show up at the ticket line before about 6:45am. I just don't like that someone can now officially pay to have a better chance. I'll give it a shot this year and see how it goes. I expect to have less availability than under the old system. I'll report back after giving it a go.
Or you could just do what most of us do who don't get permits to the canyon we want.......
That's why Mystery sucks.... IMHO, its the most difficult of the Zion canyons to poach. :popcorn:Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonccc
sounds like you guys need a preference point system similar to Utah's hunting permits. Everytime someone fails to draw they get a point which gives them an extra chance the next time they put in for a drawing. And thus continuing until they draw. Those who draw must undergo a waiting period before being eligible to draw again.
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Agreed. It's also the only canyon I've ever run into rangers inside the canyon. However i know it can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe