How to conquer a monster pothole

Bob

In case you've missed this, this is why we call these boys the A-team. RESPECT baby. :hail2thechief::hail2thechief::hail2thechief:

From Dan Ransom's website

http://vimeo.com/7120756

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

There is a LOT of good stuff on this page... but your thesis contains 16,761 words. My attention span maxes out when I get to the 10,000th word. :haha: Maybe consider breaking this into a couple of pages? I did find the pothole info and it is helpful, thanks.



Gigantor is a hypothetical friend. He literally is not a real man.



Uh, ok... Let us all take a moment to bask in the unnecessary pretentiousness that radiates from this statement. :puke: Yes, I get it, you guys hang out. :roll: Still don't care.



:lol8::lol8:

"Joey Kinder loves his Bosch. Really."

:roflol:

And yes, above is a picture of my friend Gigantor. He IS real, not hypothetical. Don't judge him. Only food and canyoneering help treat his depression. :haha:

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Tom and I were both being facetious. To even up the playing field, I am available for hire. Then you can just point to the top and say go.:haha: Until the government passes a law that say's I cant sell my body anymore.

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Originally Posted by Spidey

Tom and I were both being facetious. To even up the playing field, I am available for hire. Then you can just point to the top and say go.:haha: Until the government passes a law that say's I cant sell my body anymore.

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It is difficult to tell someone's tone when they are writing. If you guys meant to be facetious, then nevermind what I said. It was a simple miscommunication.

Rope gun for hire? Canyoneering mercenary? Interesting idea. I see [Help Wanted] and [For Sale] threads flourishing in the near future.

I would like three price quotes (not mean spirited).

You plus:

1. Me and my friend in a wheelchair round trip through Little Wild Horse.
2. Me and my wife through Quandry Direct.
3. Death Cricket, Tom, Rush Limbaugh and Bill Maher through Buckskin Gulch. (no I don't want to go, yes you guys have to camp.)

Thanks for your help Spidey. Please don't be offended if I shop around.
Bob

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

3. Death Cricket, Tom, Rush Limbaugh and Bill Maher through Buckskin Gulch. (no I don't want to go, yes you guys have to camp.)

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:lol8:
So a softcore anarchist, flaming liberal, hardcore republican, and median democrat are stuck in a pothole together. The 1st one says to the 2nd.......

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

It is difficult to tell someone's tone when they are writing. If you guys meant to be facetious, then nevermind what I said. It was a simple miscommunication.

Rope gun for hire? Canyoneering mercenary? Interesting idea. I see [Help Wanted] and [For Sale] threads flourishing in the near future.

I would like three price quotes (not mean spirited).

You plus:

1. Me and my friend in a wheelchair round trip through Little Wild Horse.
2. Me and my wife through Quandry Direct.
3. Death Cricket, Tom, Rush Limbaugh and Bill Maher through Buckskin Gulch. (no I don't want to go, yes you guys have to camp.)

Thanks for your help Spidey. Please don't be offended if I shop around.
Bob

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Couple questions to help me with the quotes.

how big is your friend? Could I carry him?
Can Bill Maher, and Rush Limbaugh have duct tape over their mouths?

In short I would say as nothing more than a climbing gun, you guys take care of all your own needs. I would likely sell my wares for the bargain price of 250$ a day. Why settle for Quandary? it's boring let's go to Poe. As for the Maher Limbaugh trip you better add 3 zero's to that price, especially if I cant use duct tape.:lol8:

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Originally Posted by Spidey

Couple questions to help me with the quotes.

how big is your friend? Could I carry him?
Can Bill Maher, and Rush Limbaugh have duct tape over their mouths?

In short I would say as nothing more than a climbing gun, you guys take care of all your own needs. I would likely sell my wares for the bargain price of 250$ a day. Why settle for Quandary? it's boring let's go to Poe. As for the Maher Limbaugh trip you better add 3 zero's to that price, especially if I cant use duct tape.:lol8:

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Spidey

If that Maher Limbaugh trip happens, we know that you will have done everything possible even if not all of the participants make it out of the canyon.:roflmao1:

Ken

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Read this for some useful information and ideas...

Canyoneering Primer - A guide to Improve your Skills.

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Anyone tried using paracord like shane suggests? How easy is that to get up with some kind of prussik or similar ascending set up? Also, let's say I threw 3 seperate potshots with 3 - 8mm ropes attached to them. It's a pothole with an overhang on the exit and it's pretty high up. Would it be helpful to tie knots in each of the 3 ropes every foot or so to get better grip while batmanning up? I know you'd have to yank on a few ropes so the knots would be closer to even... would it work? worth it? Most potholes aren't near this difficult and partner assists combined with batmanning and stuff has gotten me out of the pothole canyons I've done, but thinking about a 15 foot free hanging batman on a few ropes seems like I probably wouldn't get up. But with knots, might work better for me. thoughts?

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Originally Posted by ghawk

... Thoughts?

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Go out and give it a try, take video, post!

T

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Originally Posted by ghawk

Anyone tried using paracord like shane suggests? How easy is that to get up with some kind of prussik or similar ascending set up? Also, let's say I threw 3 seperate potshots with 3 - 8mm ropes attached to them. It's a pothole with an overhang on the exit and it's pretty high up. Would it be helpful to tie knots in each of the 3 ropes every foot or so to get better grip while batmanning up? I know you'd have to yank on a few ropes so the knots would be closer to even... would it work? worth it? Most potholes aren't near this difficult and partner assists combined with batmanning and stuff has gotten me out of the pothole canyons I've done, but thinking about a 15 foot free hanging batman on a few ropes seems like I probably wouldn't get up. But with knots, might work better for me. thoughts?

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if this hypothetical pothole existed, my guess is it wouldn't hold on potshots, unless there was very favorable geometry for them. however, i'm not really aware of any potholes that exist with this description, that can't be defeated by other means. the wart pothole in poe is as scary as it gets, but you can throw potshots and set a tyrolean. otherwise, it'd be impossible. so this scenario seems very unlikely. there are lots of canyons i haven't done though, so i guess the scariest pothole in the universe might still be out there :)

parachute cord is probably sufficient to throw the bags farther, but i don't think i'd trust para cord over any sort of an edge jugging or hand over hand. plus, they'd be hard as hell to hold on to. way too skinny. but, i suppose it could be done. we've used 6mm pull cord to throw with.

the rest of the hypotheticals in this thread sounds like the big pothole in poe almost exactly. the upcanyon side is overhanging there, but the downcanyon side (the exit) is like 85 degrees or so.

with the pit of despair, there is enough geometry that potshots work. just barely though. they are still marginal. hand over hand only works because it's not fully supporting the weight of the climber coming out, and there is tons of friction all the way around the system. the actual bags only weigh a few pounds each, tops. (that's the only way you can throw them 40 feet...) when all three bags get pulled together, it squeezes them into a slight constriction, with just enough grab to catch. but it's not fool proof. you can pull them out pretty easily, especially if they aren't equalized properly. and still then, it pays to test them, as they will pull out sometimes, depending on how they land 40 feet away, where you can't see them.

my guess is tying knots wouldn't work. not sure how you would do it. in the pit of despair example, it think the knots would hinder your ability to throw the bags as far as they need to go. in fact, it usually takes two people to get them across. last time, i threw the bags, while another person managed the rope and threw it at the same time so you can minimize the drag. tying the ropes before throwing seems like it would be trouble.

that said, the pit of despair is a pretty unique pothole. almost always, there are multiple ways to defeat a keeper. this is one of the rare instances where it happens to be pretty damn tough to do.

the hardest part about a prussik or a bachmann knot is the sand that is certain to get onto the throw ropes. once the knot is weighted, it's VERY hard to get the prussik to unlock again and slide up. that's why hand over hand is the preferred method, though admittedly many of us can't do it. need to have a pretty strong climber to get out that way. of course, once one person is up, it's easy to fix the rope and have the next person jug out (which is what Jim is doing in this photo...)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2608/4...3f52aa80_b.jpg

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

He works a desk job where he spends most of his time posting questions on Bogley.

From posting so much, his arms have become weak.

He can’t even do a chin-up, so ‘batmanning’ up a rope is not part of his repertoire.

Because of his weak hands he can only throw one Potshot at a time.

Gigantor knows that is it a bad idea to attempt this pothole solo, but he is wearing his brand new Go-Pro and wants post a bad ass trip report on Bogley.

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that about sums up the online canyoneering community perfectly. of course, minus the hypothetical "friend" part. and you missed the descriptor about the mandatory 80s butt rock soundtrack for said "bad-ass" video trip report. :roflol:

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

that about sums up the online canyoneering community perfectly. of course, minus the hypothetical "friend" part. and you missed the descriptor about the mandatory 80s butt rock soundtrack :roflol:

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:haha:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Go out and give it a try, take video, post!

T

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I'll see what I can do. Heading out this weekend... might play around with it in some less harmless situations. :nod:

We had been discussing a Poe Trip without a super-climber last fall (then it rained). The thought was to bring pieces of 6mm pull cords to use for the throws, and keep them completely clean before use, then someone like me could climb them using a device. But, even the fastest rope-climber-using-devices (i.e., not me) is going to be much slower than someone strong and confident going hand-over-hand.

Tom

Here is a video of a few potholes from a trip last year. As Tom will attest our techniques could use some work. But considering I was the only guy that had ever escaped a pothole and the guy with the camera and one of the others had never done a canyon in there lives we were just glad to make it to the end.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKN4a_eVTpU&feature=g-upl&context=G205fd42AUAAAAAAAHAA

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Here is a video of a few potholes from a trip last year. As Tom will attest our techniques could use some work. But considering I was the only guy that had ever escaped a pothole and the guy with the camera and one of the others had never done a canyon in there lives we were just glad to make it to the end.

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Uh-oh... Quick question- is that canyon known as Infern.. oh Paradis... uh Limbergatory? Screw it, forget I asked. :lol8:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Here is a video of a few potholes from a trip last year. As Tom will attest our techniques could use some work. But considering I was the only guy that had ever escaped a pothole and the guy with the camera and one of the others had never done a canyon in there lives we were just glad to make it to the end.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKN4a_eVTpU&feature=g-upl&context=G205fd42AUAAAAAAAHAA

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Oh yeah... I remember this one. Very good illustration of the butt grab assist :haha:

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

Uh-oh... Quick question- it that canyon known as Infern.. oh Paradis... uh Limbergatory? Screw it, forget I asked. :lol8:

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Looks like you are catching on.:2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

...my guess is tying knots wouldn't work. not sure how you would do it. in the pit of despair example, it think the knots would hinder your ability to throw the bags as far as they need to go. in fact, it usually takes two people to get them across. last time, i threw the bags, while another person managed the rope and threw it at the same time so you can minimize the drag. tying the ropes before throwing seems like it would be trouble.

that said, the pit of despair is a pretty unique pothole. almost always, there are multiple ways to defeat a keeper. this is one of the rare instances where it happens to be pretty damn tough to do.

the hardest part about a prussik or a bachmann knot is the sand that is certain to get onto the throw ropes. once the knot is weighted, it's VERY hard to get the prussik to unlock again and slide up. that's why hand over hand is the preferred method, though admittedly many of us can't do it. need to have a pretty strong climber to get out that way. of course, once one person is up, it's easy to fix the rope and have the next person jug out (which is what Jim is doing in this photo...)

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Great insight, thanks for sharing the technique. I'll be having nightmares about your photo tonight. :jaw-dropping:

The escape looks really easy from the angle of your photo. *frantically digs through the couch coushins looking for $250 to hire Spidey*

Bob

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

Great insight, thanks for sharing the technique. I'll be having nightmares about your photo tonight. :jaw-dropping:

The escape looks really easy from the angle of your photo. *frantically digs through the couch coushins looking for $250 to hire Spidey*

Bob

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I wasn't being entirely serious on that either. Ask Tom, Ram, or Dan among others, I'm a pretty cheap climbing gun. Maybe some day I'll figure out how a working girl can get paid!:lol8:

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Originally Posted by Spidey

I wasn't being entirely serious on that either. Ask Tom, Ram, or Dan among others, I'm a pretty cheap climbing gun. Maybe some day I'll figure out how a working girl can get paid!:lol8:

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Steve

With prices like that, some of these desk bound canyon jockeys should really consider spending a few days with you doing your canyoneering courses. I am sure I will be soundly criticized for saying this but so many critical canyoneering skill can't be learned viewing a YouTube video and playing with ropes in the living room (I know I've tried). There is no substitute for being mentored by (dare I say it) an actual human being who knows what in the world they are doing. It's a damn big sandbox out there and you actually have to get your hands dirty. It's critical to remember that the map is not the terrain. Yep, people forget that canyoneering from their computer. There, I've said it.

Ken:angryfire: