RFC - New Birch Hollow signage - Comments?

Dang, I have got to meet you. I don't have your comments figured out yet. And yes your field comment is funny unless there is lightning in the forcast. Then there are a bunch of little lightning rods running around with knives. :crazy: And yes, agreed 20-1 is a really bad ratio and I know it goes on..... but shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by bshwakr

So you subscribe to sacrificial canyons? I don't. No matter the leaders, large scout groups are an uncontrollable entity whose safest location is a large field in rural Utah.

And why mention Water Canyon? It receives far less traffic than Birch Hollow because of it's location and a more strenuous approach.

k

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I guess so, yes. I mean, they are going to go somewhere right? The worst canyon condition wise that I've seen is Subway with lots of trash and wall scratchings. Oh and the upper portion of Hidden canyon has some nasty grafitti in it. And whoever took a dump after the first rap in Pine Creek, you friggin asshole! But in Yankee Doodle, Birch, and Water Canyon? Zero, zip, nada... And these are unregulated canyons that lets as much flow go through as they can handle. Spotless.

Small disclaimer though, I haven't done a lot of canyons like others here. :crazy:

You forgot the laughing icon! :lol8::mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by canyonguru

you didn't do water canyon with a group of 5 did you. My buddy Harold took a group down water canyon yesterday and they were from St George.

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Yeah sounds right, we chatted for a bit, nice guy. He was taking some really old people through right? 60-65ish? They bypassed the top half of the canyon? Only saw one other group and they were going for the arch so I bet it was him. Didn't catch a name though. :2thumbs: I tossed vids up of our group in our TR.

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

I see no problem with large-ish groups, scouts or otherwise.

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The biggest problem I've observed with large groups is the ratio of skilled to noob is usually very high, which causes the group as a whole to move very slow. And because the group is moving slow many in the group have a lot of idle time to do things they shouldn't be doing. This problems are exponential when the slowing moving group are poorly supervised teenage boys.

Large groups are not an issue when the skilled to noob ratio is low. I have been to Bogley-fests, Tom-fests and ACA rondies where the group size is large but the groups move through the slots fast and efficient because everyone at least knows the basics of what they are doing and they are all carrying their own technical gear.

You outta come with the Mapleton boys when we are taking our scouts through a slot canyon. A lot of training goes into getting them prepared, efficient, and trusted. I know what you are saying but I gotta tell you that not all youth leaders and groups are created equally. I won't forget the time my 12 (pre permit days) were on the heels of a guide and his group of three in Mystery. We waited for them at every rappel... yes, every rappel, all 12 of us waiting. It was most annoying. He, the guide, wouldn't let us play through. Those being helped by this "guide" were quite apologetic at the Mystery Springs rappel as they watched the guide tying knots to take pressure off knots. How do I know of the purpose of these knots you may be asking? That is what he told us he was doing... :crazy::lol8:

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

You outta come with the Mapleton boys when we are taking our scouts through a slot canyon. A lot of training goes into getting them prepared, efficient, and trusted.

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The ward I live in also is well trained, fast, efficient, well supervised and do some amazing things.... but unfortunately that appears to be the exception and not the rule....

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

I won't forget the time my 12 (pre permit days) were on the heels of a guide and his group of three in Mystery. We waited for them at every rappel... yes, every rappel, all 12 of us waiting. It was most annoying. He, the guide, wouldn't let us play through.

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When dealing with groups like this there comes a point where I no longer ask for permission and just toss a line down next to the ass-hat and start sending people down.