Of course YMMV. My point is one needs to evaluate the best approach here. If the plan was for self rescue, getting that wetsuit back on over a broken ankle could be pretty challenging. Also putting on a shell over a wetsuit will stop evaporative cooling. Presumably one is wearing more than a 3/2 wetsuit coming out of Imlay. On the other hand if there is plenty of dry warm gear and you are staying put, of course one will be much more comfy in regular clothes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
Ken
You can "buy your way into" the decision-making process by taking a Wilderness First Responder class. The person with medical training is technically "in-charge" until replaced by someone with a higher level of certification - in this case it would be the Park Medic.
Given what you stated, I am with you. START out, at the very least. A lot of it has to do with presentation - how do you present it to engage everyone in the 'good idea'. I would have presented it as: "let's try this - there are much better places to hang out downstream, let's give this a try, slowly, and see how it goes". There are some valid points regarding possible spinal - I have an advantage in both having broken my back and having been trained in how to clear a spine. So I could possibly clear the spine. While a large fall would indicate potential for a spinal problem, the lack of serious obvious injury when hitting the bottom makes this less of a problem.
But don't feel bad. Without a WFR you have no responsibility. You want the responsibility, get your WFR.
In this kind of potential self-rescue, momentum has a big effect. If things are stopped, they tend to stay stopped. If you can get things moving slowly, they will tend to stay moving. Moving gets people engaged, entertained and helps keep them warm. Get that party moving downcanyon, and you might find out that Ms. Broken Heel can make 1/2 a mile an hour downcanyon, and everyone can be out by 2 in the morning. Getting the group moving opens up thinking for other people, in which case, it may be best for half of their group to head out, go get their car, and bring stuff back up-canyon for the rest of the people to be warmer for the rest of the night. etc. etc. Group stopped means, in general, nothing happens.
Jeesh, incompetence is giving the biner block a bad name. Don't you guyz tie-off the other side, at least?
Tom
As usual Tom you make some very good points. I guess the only thing holding up the decision is she fell so far, I couldn't believe she was still breathing, really. So yeah my presentation was very very weak when I made it. And I'm not surprised it wasn't well received. I myself had very little confidence in it, haha. But I think I will learn from this experience and maybe when there isn't any signs of trauma, be a little more convincing in my argument next time. I mean it was a dead giveaway when she lifted herself up so we could slide the mattress under her, and the fact she was able to get her wetsuit off and into dry clothes with only her BF's assistance. And the emergency blanket was a sleeping bag type, she lifted her legs both simultaneously so we could slide it over her. I don't think a severely injured person would be able to accomplish those events. Looking back that should have been obvious, I guess.
Another factor that went through my head that I was probably unconscious about, is that we had just taken two very young children through some serious obstacles and made absolutely sure they were safe at all times. We had to take special precautions at every downclimb and kinda made a game out of it. I'm just going through my video footage today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6oHj9r2DxE
As you can see we had multiple people covering the kids at all times and after doing this for 8 hours, my mindset was probably "well she is just a bigger kid, I know how to get her out of here with us". In the end though, if we had moved her and caused more damage, I would probably never forgive myself for that. Suggesting WFR is also a great idea. Having knowledge in this would be a good idea either way. I'm going to look into it.
:2thumbs:
ZAC does a WFR each fall and spring with WMA, http://www.wildmed.com/ which is the best outfit for doing WFR's. I took a WFR in Salt Lake before moving down here, got the card, and...Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathcricket
Gotta say, when I renewed my WFR with WMA, I learned a whole bunch, and was WAY more competent in the field. I have renewed again with WMA, and I am pretty sure, now, I will do what is best for the patient in the field. I think the WMA WFR is worth roughly 2X what a "regular" WFR is worth.
While a WFR is required for guiding, I am very happy to have this training when out on my own. It has proven useful. I was first-on a horse-car accident in the middle of nowhere, Nevada - and was really happy to have training. Thankfully, no significant injury there. In general, when out in the wild, I can do about as much as anyone else, other than a real doctor. So if something happens, and especially if someone dies in my care, most likely while I will feel very, very bad, at least I will know that I did all that was possible for them.
Tom
No, I was not even in the state. But that may have been a different member of the group involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathcricket
Deathcricket,
Talked with someone who was in the group. They said you were amazing and provided exactly what they needed at the time. Passing along their thanks.
Awww that is wonderful to hear, thanks Rich. :2thumbs:
DeathCricket = Canyonman Junior Grade
:2thumbs:
Gives all rappelling, no matter the method, a bad name.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I try to impart a safety check protocol. Clip into the anchor. Rig your device. Go fully on rappel, check it to see if functions properly. Then, unclip and descend.
I think a quickdraw for clipping the pull side of a biner block into the anchor should be standard for all but the last person. How about a bottom belay? Not sure that would have mattered if the pull cord wasn't managed as well as the rap side.
Struggling with imparting the seriousness of this rappelling thing to folks. I hate to bring up death and serious injury to make a point...but...it is serious stuff. You f' it up, you could die. Yeah, kills the fun mood, don't it? Better'n than being killed. Maybe I need to soften it up, though.
Instead of a biner block being standard fare, maybe its too bad a contingency anchor rigging isn't more common. That always begs for a tie off at the anchor. And, is way more useful if someone has an issue while on rappel.
Biner block just isn't that useful a tool, except, to keep from having to pass a knot if your rope lengths don't add up for a longer rappel. I still wonder why folks bother with it when they have enough rope to just rappel double. Seems like a silly thing to rig when your ropes are long enough to begin with. Of course, making sure you have both ropes engaged should be standard for a double rope rappel too...(with bad consequences if that is f'd up too).
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
Super interesting thread everyone. I love all the comments. I think my first many canyons I relied on those with experience to check everything for me, now that I'm a few years into it I don't feel safe on rap without checking it myself. We almost always plan on a dual strand rappel unless it's not feasible to set up. We just keep it simple. The most complicated of a set up we usually do is tying 2 200ft ropes together. That being said I have read up on all many canyoneering techniques including biner blocking. I don't want to use it unnecessarily, but I like to have it in my arsenal if needed. Having rappelled on biner block once I can say it seems like rappelling the wrong line is a decently easy mistake to make. When I did it I hooked in then traced my rope back to the anchor and made sure I was on the correct side before heading off. I was probably 10 hours into the hike so possibly for a fatigue error was there. It's always good to hear discussions on how keep yourself more safe. I hate to hear tragedies, but honestly they put me in check and make me want to double check my set ups. Stay safe out there.
Dang, I was a day early for this incident and sounds like I missed the chance to meet the infamous Death Cricket. I was in the Narrows that very time and at the mouth of Orderville with one of my buddies and his family. He is an orthopedic (Sports Medicine) doc but, we were a day early. Obviously had we come across that situation he would have taken over. Had he not been there, I would have offered to help having been WFR certified last year. Honestly, had she been cleared, including her spine and noggin, I would have splinted her and probably would have tried to move her out or at least meet the rangers half way. But I also know that the park is well equipped to handle things in the Narrows quite quickly. If memory serves me correctly, don't they have a special narrows litter to evacuate the injured? Anyway, DC, I think your decision was just fine with the injury you described, equipment and training everyone had. No need to lose sleep imho.
This incident also explains the lack of rangers at the exit of the Subway...
Haha I have been waiting for a chance to meet the mapleton crew, what a bummer I missed ya. I was doing Pine Creek with a bunch of noobs on the day you were in Orderville, too funny. Thanks for the encouragement. :2thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
still always an opportunist for ranger encounters at subway :lol8:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
It's a tool like anything else. There are good times to use it, bad times, and meh times. It can be useful for situations where you are more worried about the pull - if it sticks it's easier to ascend with it blocked. Of course blocking it could make the pull harder, it depends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
It can make rescue easier. Much harder to rerig toss and go into a lower.
I think we are on the same page here. You probably don't want to rush taking off the wetsuit in case she did have other injuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinesnaper
Well darn it, someone affiliated with the Park is gonna listen to me rant about the permit system if the higher-up won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by trackrunner
:haha:
I asked this in another post but so far we had a broken ankle at the Crossroads, a broken heal at the Imlay exit Rap. and another broken ankle on the mystery enterence 3/4 of the way down. all happened yesterday? Man that is crazy.
I did see the Heli dropping into the canyon from the back side of the Observation trail looking twards Angels Landing but i had no idea all that was going on. We were back to the Pizza Noodle by 3:30
no, the imlay epic happened on the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonguru
I think Tom made the best point. Buy your way into the decision making process. If it is very serious chances are they are not going to make it anyway.
Ok thanks for the clarification. Bo said in my other post that the Heli was for a couple of climbers.