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not having done this canyon with it's simulataneous rappel for two people, how does one change the setup when there is only one person.
Is the rope still in the same place?
Is the same anchor used?
ICE: reading into your post are you saying that he should have rigged for double strand and therefore he would not have had a 'lack of friction' issue?
Not sure what you are implying here. Please clarify. Thanks,
bruce from bryce
Yeah, who's drivin' this bus, anyhow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Har har.
Canyon leaders, leaders in the canyon community...
Its kind of a broken record, but...
Using a biner block for no other reason than to just rappel single strand, seems not necessary to me. Especially if you need the friciton, have the rope available, aren't riggin' for contingency...
These kind of accidents just don't seem to happen at this frequency in the climbing community. Just an observation. And, from my admittedly biased point of view.
Anyhoo...
-Brian in SLC
Veering off slightly - there have been times when I've had a muscle spasm at the climbing gym after climbing a couple of overhanging jugfests on the tall walls (I like those sort of climbs), while coiling my rope up afterwards. What tends to happen is that the muscle controlling my thumb locks so I can't straighten it.
I figure the person most at risk from this is my climbing partner, if instead of coiling the rope, they decide to second or lead the route, and my muscle spasms while belaying them. However, the two times it's happened I've kept control of the other four fingers - it was just the thumb that went, and it only seems to happen while coiling the rope, holding the centre of the coil in the gap between my thumb and index finger to gather it (I was seriously freaked out the first time it happened - I thought I'd bust a tendon). Were it to happen while belaying I'd try to clamp the other four fingers round the rope, call to my climber to find something secure to hold on to, swap hands, and then bring my climber down.
Were this to happen while rapping, I'd like to hope I could swap hands, or have a fireman's belay ready. If I was first down, there'd be no fireman's belay, but I'm wary about using a top belay on a free hanging rap because I'm worried about the ropes tangling. Maybe I'm talking myself into doing this sort of thing with an autoblock (assuming it's a dry landing)?
When I was last in Zion, I was the first of our group to do the Pine Creek exit rap. We rigged it single strand on 9mm with a 'biner block, pull cord not yet deployed, pull side backed up with a figure 8, and I used my ATC-XP in high friction mode with a Z-rig. In the event there was so much friction that I actually had to haul the rope up and into my Z-rig in order to make any downwards progress. Everyone else got a fireman's belay and just did the rap with a second 'biner round the leg loop for extra friction. I think I'd have felt a bit better with someone at the bottom holding the rope, just in case.
I don't know - it's not a nice thing to contemplate, and jman - I'm really pleased to hear your injuries are relatively minor, considering. Here's wishing you a full and speedy recovery.
Wow, that's pretty cool!Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
I've had my thumb cramp like that too. Where the thumb lays into and across your palm and its really difficult to straighten it out?
Mine usually comes from over gripping on ice tools, or, after a longer session of crack climbing. "Cool" because you're recruiting your thumb on over hanging routes...
I've had mine cramp hard enough that I was a tad worried about finishing a pitch. But, its never been an issue with a rappel, though. Just not the same motion I guess.
If you use an ATC with a belay loop on your harness, the brake side of the rope should be available for either hand to control. So, that's good piece of mind. Most folks I know who are fairly saavy don't get married to one hand for belaying and/or rappelling. Good to go with either. Or both!
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
Yes, that's it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
It started working again after I massaged the muscle for a minute or so.
I suspect it's a subconscious thing - I grip on tightly because of the terror of falling from above my pro on lead, which is irrational because I'd be falling into empty space, and my belayer is competent, and the protection is bomb proof, and I've done it before without incident, and so on.Quote:
Mine usually comes from over gripping on ice tools, or, after a longer session of crack climbing. "Cool" because you're recruiting your thumb on over hanging routes...
But that doesn't seem to help :-(
Only thing I'm sayin' is I see a serious problem with all the accidents that result from the same combination.... biner block/skinny ropes/single strand....Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce from bryce
I don't see any other group (climbers/cavers/adventure racers/etc) that rappel using a different combination having similar issues with serious accidents and death's.....
And I can promise you one thing..... if this issue is not addressed I'll be adding more serious accidents to the list...
:cool2:
Hmm, a few more replies since last night.
Emperor of Rats:
I do know how to rappel, actually. I have actually done more than just a "few" canyons too. I know my gear as well. People have mentioned using a autoblock. Yup, I could of. But in my mind, it would of been a lot of effort and time into so I just went without it.
Ice Queen:
I was applying the KISS principle as you say. The biner block is VERY easy, not complicated at all. And I'm not a noob as I have numerous times rappelled down this exact same rope tens of times before, and most using a biner block with a contingency anchor - sometimes even being redundant on backups. Ever been to the S curve free-rappel up Little Cottonwood (over 65+ feet)? I've done that over 30+ times in the past 2 years.
All I'm getting at is: I've done many rappels (200+ in the past 6years) and more than a few dozen free-rappels. I know the equipment and I know the gear and I know the skills required. I just never guessed my hand would ever give out like that. I have had 0 accidents, 0 technical close-calls, etc on every trip. I've done other dumb things like forgetting headlamps, or stoves, or first-aid gear...but never technical gear. That's the 1st thing I grab when I head down to the basement.
So you can't say I'm experienced. What you can say is that I was dumb and overlooked my backup for myself. When I'm in a group - it's always different and the most care and safety is taken into account. By myself, I'm not under so much pressure.
This trip was unfortunate because I overlooked an IMPORTANT (and easy) thing to implement - a belay. Whether a person or device or setup.
Brian:
when I noticed my hand was "getting hot" that wasn't a new relevation for me. What surprised me was how quick it got hot - which meant I was using a lot of friction - which probably led to the muscle spasm/lockup. After I tied off and rested which was when I was close to 1/2 down the 110ft rappel. I continued and got another 20 feet down the rope - PERFECTLY GOOD without slight worry. Next thing, I remember was my hand locking up and I couldn't control it at all and the rope fed right through it as I dropped through the floor. I have never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever experienced any type of sensation like that EVER rappelling. If I did while hiking up to the arch, I would stopped and came back down - no big deal.
So right there, a belayer (or my friend who was taking pictures of me) would of come just a little handy.....
I dunno. I'm in the "don't fall ever" club. Has served me well for the longer haul.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
In a climbing gym near me (but not the one I attend), there's been 20 or so deck falls. So, that whole "belayer is competent" thing might be true, or, not. Ha ha.
And, its not always going to be steep. And the pro isn't always going to be bomber. And, you won't always clip the rope in correctly (back clip, or, clip the tail of the rope in).
A friend was cramping kinda bad the other day at the gym. A reminder to eat something with some electrolytes and drink some fluid prior to the workout seemed to cure the problem.
I'm sure you're getting a training benefit from all that over gripping...
Its all good.
-Brian in SLC
Have a friend who's been trying to convince me I should use one too. He uses it every time we rappel (climbing). Fast and efficient, and, a great back up. Makes me wonder...Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Never heard of it. Been to the one up Big Cottonwood, though. Just uphill from the Mill B/Broad's Fork trailhead. Ha ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Yeah, lets not say that. Ha ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Sounds like a....hold it...hold it... a new revelation. Or, sorry, a relevation? At elevation? Is relevation just "real elevation"?Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Sorry. Just havin' fun.
If your hand in a glove is getting hot at all, ever, and you feel the need for a glove due to that, then you need to maybe re-think your friction and rappel technique.
If you have to tie off and rest after only 50 feet of a free air rappel...well, that's a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Sometimes, a bunch of little mistakes add up and it only takes a little being dehydrated, a little low on electrolytes and/or food, and, boom, a cramp, at the worst possible time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Frightening!
Are there lessons to be learned here? I hope so. More, uh, bad rappelling experience isn't going to help...
Just havin' fun mostly. Glad you didn't get hurt much, much worse.
Cheers, and, let us know what that auto speed detecting device is you mentioned earlier.
-Brian in SLC
Brian in Hell,
Your humor is like mine. Although, recently when things could of been worse than just breaking 2 bones...I take it a bit personal since I could of easily died. Just saying...
Basically I lucked out when I skimmped out on my own safety and backups. Everyone can relate I'm sure, even the "helmet enforcer" who was caught with his pants down and Ice has a nice picture of him without a helmet on...
Anyways,
It is interesting that Europeans use a lot of 9 to 11mm ropes (obviously different terrain) and as Ice was saying the perceived standard over here is smaller the better (although that's not what women say har har).
Btw, u are correct, Big Cottonwood. U should know that area very well as a climber...haha
You have provided evidence to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
But, then again, we all screw up once in a while. A bottom belay has saved my butt more than once. Hope you have a swift and complete recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
---
Autoblocs are hard to use. I use one all the time when guiding, have not used one ever when not guiding. Have seen plenty of people use them improperly/ineffectively, who had no clue that what they were doing would not work.
Tom
I don't like the way my hand feels divorced from the rap rope when using one - it freaks me out quite a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Since were discussing friction on a single strand heres a different way to rig a pirana. I started using my pirana flipped over to wear the other side. I have always used a carabiner on my leg loop brake side and place the brake strand thru it. If I needed more friction I would just lift up with the brake hand. That can get tiresome if going a long distance. I had tried taking the brake strand up to the hook on the pirana but that was always way to much friction. Since flipping my pirana over now when I take the brake strand up and hook it over the top of the pirana it is not against the hook but the nice sloped angle of the pirana. This allows you to really change friction on that nice slope and not the hook. Works pretty well.
As far as single or double the way I look at it each have pros and cons.
Still sucks to be hurt. Worth a look see, though, and I appreciate you being so forthcoming with the details.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
We don't learn much when everything goes ok.
And, when you share, the whole community can benefit from at least the discussion.
Yeah, for the most part, I think they think we're nuts. Terrain notwithstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
They usually don't use ATC type devices either. So, more wide open, like eights or Piranas. They seem to love the big air, too.
Actually, knock on wood, had my last climbing accident there...(upper "scurves"). Was a bunch of time ago, though. 18 years? Yikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
Anyhoo. I pluck a ton of webbing from time to time off that crag. I've never seen folks up there for just rappelling. Do folks rig for the rappel on the climber's left side (closer to the creek?)? Must have picked up 50 or 60 feet of 1" webbing awhile back. Crazy.
Yeah, there but for the grace go us. We're all tickin' tiime bombs when it comes to this safety stuff. I think that's why some of us pick the accident stuff apart so much. I could totally see blowing a rappel. I just try to be hyper vigilant if possible, but, sometimes....
Cheers, and, let us know how the surgery plays out. You know, gory details and all.
Have you seen Kelly's website? Talks about his recent climbing injury (well, sorta climbing). Good lessons learned. Funny guy, great writer. Kind of adult content, so...
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/
Scroll down far enough and you'll be psyched for that surgery...! Well, maybe not...
Take care,
-Brian in SLC
Jman.... I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, because I'm not.... I just feel there is a flaw in the basic biner block/skinny ropes/single strand system.... why do I feel this way you ask? Because to many "experienced" people are getting hurt.... these accidents/death's should not be happening....Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
:popcorn:
Do you think his hand would have been less likely to spasm if he'd double stranded?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Maybe there's an element of complacency in what you've observed? You get worse road accidents at 90mph, but newbie drivers don't tend to drive that fast.
Jman, glad you are in one piece although busted up a bit. Good luck with your recovery. A couple of questions...
Did you have any extra biners, cords or other gear on you (on your gear loops, in your pack, etc.) when you tied off? If so, did you consider adding friction when you tied off or was you mindset just you needed to cool the hand at that time so as to continue on? Curious as to the gear and thoughts at the tie-off point in time. I don't remember what rappel device you were using so I will ask how did you tie off midrappel?
:popcorn:
It's not this ONE accident that makes me think the system is flawed.... it's the consistently high number of accidents involving the same system that leads me to believe the system is flawed. One or two accidents and I'll consider it bad luck.... we are well beyond that number.... and this high accident rate is not occurring with those not using the system....Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
And I'm not an expert on rappeling or hand spasms.... but hands don't just start spasming for nothing.... maybe the rope was gripped too tight.... which maybe was a result of the ropes being to small or not enough friction.... I'm just guessing.... I wasn't there.... you asked what I thought....
:blahblah:
What I'm also seeing is the old.... "it can't happen to me" syndrome in regards to the issue....
"It only happens to noobs..."
"It won't happen to me... I have this really cool new rappel device...."
"It can't happen to me, I wear a glove..."
Scary when folks start thinking like that.....
:popcorn:
My bet is the relationship is linear...Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
Double the pleasure, double the fun.
Nah, you've failed to take into account the "young, bulletproof male" scenario...Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahlizzy
Ha ha.
-Brian in SLC
I think I know where you are headed with this, Ice. I tend to agree kinda sorta. After all, I am the one responsible for having my group carry 1100 feet of rope through Heaps so as to double strand the last and second to last raps. However, I have used, almost exclusively, the biner block/single strand method for the past couple of years. I use this mostly due to the ability to quickly measure the length of the rappel and not have to coil or bag a bunch of extra rope. Further, it is just easier for me particularly in wet canyons. I remember doing the double rope method in Kolob my first time and I swear I was getting tangled in all the floating rope while unhooking and then afterwords fighting to bag/coil the mess of rope just to throw it for the next rap - 20 feet away. The biner block has made me and my groups much more efficient and quick in the canyon. Soooo very nice to slide off the end of a rope when you touch or splash down rather than have to do a water disconnect. I guess what I am saying is that for me, in most situations, the biner block is K.I.S.S.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
That being said, I regularly ask for a belay. If I am first down on a tall rappel, I have back up friction rigged before ever leaning backwards and starting over the edge. I'd much rather feed rope through the rappel device than fry my hand or worse, crater as was mentioned. Just me, I have this fear of hard landings. The knees are getting old. :moses: (Sorry Tom, had to use moses guy here. Don't worry, he is still mostly yours :haha: )