Stuck on Rappel needing rescue.

Getting too many quotes up there^^^

using 2 ropes is fine for contingency..
Just tie your bend in the ropes below the rapide.
The last guy down has to remove the block.

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Getting too many quotes up there^^^

using 2 ropes is fine for contingency..
Just tie your bend in the ropes below the rapide.
The last guy down has to remove the block.

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We have gotten way off track of the original idea of this post but,

Kurt, As your buddy Rich would say it depends,

Here's a scenario for you 2 100' ropes 65' could be a little more or less, rappel overhung and you cannot see the bottom. How are you going to rig it?

Mark

o.k. I'll bite, you said a scenario for "you" meaning, me.

You told me the rap is 65'ish, even without knowing this distance, I would throw down approximately what I figured is enough rope, set a dynamic block.
If the first person get's into trouble 30' or so from the bottom, no problem,lower. If said person get's into trouble above 30'ish. No problem, start to lower and pass your knot(bend) when it get's to the rapide.

Now are you going to ask me how to pass a knot on a lower? :lol8:

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's hear it.

Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

This is way off of the original topic but I know nuttin about climbing. When free climbing as they go up they place gear along the way and have somene belaying them on the ground? When they get to the top how do they get the rope set to rappel double? When rappeling back down how is the gear cleaned up?

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Yep. Depends on whether the belayer is following the pitch or not.

For short, half rope length type sport climbing, its very typical for someone to lead the route, then, lower off an anchor to the ground, and the belayer and leader trade spots, and the former belayer leads the route too. Then, the gear is cleaned either on rappel (or while being lower by the belayer) by the last person to climb the route.

There's a few variations on that theme. Standard type especially multi pitch climbing, the belayer becomes the follower up a pitch and cleans the gear. Once at the top of a route, if there's not a convenient way off, then they rig for rappels off the anchor they used on the way up, or, they build anchors for rappels on the way down (at this point it kinda looks like canyoneering).

Very uncommon to see climbers rappel on anything but a doubled rope. Also common to see climbers, especially on half pitch routes, lower from the anchor.

Back to being lowered...I kinda hate it. I'd much rather rappel. I get lowered in the climbing gym all the time and I still never really get that comfy with it. Maybe I have control issues! Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.

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My bet is a pick off is faster and more efficient than rigging a haul for someone stuck on a rope. I can't imagine hauling someone back up to an anchor who's hair was stuck in their rappel device, especially given some terrain considerations. And, rigging off what anchor? A stack of rocks with a sling sticking out of the sand? Also, the haulee couldn't do much to guide themselves away from any features (their hands would be fairly tied up). A pick off would be fast and might solve the problem much faster and the rappeller may just continue on their way.

All this stuff makes me think folks should be carrying an extra rope...!

And give thoughts to "rescue worthy" anchor solutions...

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

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I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by moab mark

This is way off of the original topic but I know nuttin about climbing. When free climbing as they go up they place gear along the way and have somene belaying them on the ground? When they get to the top how do they get the rope set to rappel double? When rappeling back down how is the gear cleaned up?

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Yep. Depends on whether the belayer is following the pitch or not.

For short, half rope length type sport climbing, its very typical for someone to lead the route, then, lower off an anchor to the ground, and the belayer and leader trade spots, and the former belayer leads the route too. Then, the gear is cleaned either on rappel (or while being lower by the belayer) by the last person to climb the route.

There's a few variations on that theme. Standard type especially multi pitch climbing, the belayer becomes the follower up a pitch and cleans the gear. Once at the top of a route, if there's not a convenient way off, then they rig for rappels off the anchor they used on the way up, or, they build anchors for rappels on the way down (at this point it kinda looks like canyoneering).

Very uncommon to see climbers rappel on anything but a doubled rope. Also common to see climbers, especially on half pitch routes, lower from the anchor.

Back to being lowered...I kinda hate it. I'd much rather rappel. I get lowered in the climbing gym all the time and I still never really get that comfy with it. Maybe I have control issues! Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

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I assume they are just rappeling double because it's easy to rig and go and very seldom do they have problems rappeling.

Another questions, from what I hear most climbers are using some sort of an atc? When rappeling down and cleaning gear how are they tying off?
Thanks

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Another questions, from what I hear most climbers are using some sort of an atc? When rappeling down and cleaning gear how are they tying off?
Thanks

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The one's I see usually use a leg wrap.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.

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I can't imagine hauling someone back up to an anchor who's hair was stuck in their rappel device, especially given some terrain considerations.

All this stuff makes me think folks should be carrying an extra rope...!

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You've got me on the stuck hair Brian, I can't imagine being hauled in that situation either. I honestly think lowering off a contingency will solve 95% of CP canyon dilemma's regarding being stuck on rope. If we throw in water, it definitely changes things, as does whether the victim can help or is even conscience. Too many scenario's to be able to write one solution for sure.
As Mark stated earlier, I alway's carry an extra rope in my pack on all canyon's. I never include it's length in the equation of, do we have enough rope for this canyon. It is "extra". I used to carry an 80' piece of canyon pro, but somehow it got turned into 2-40's at last years Moab Rondy.

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

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I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

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I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

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I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

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I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

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You just passed a knot.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I assume they are just rappeling double because it's easy to rig and go and very seldom do they have problems rappeling.

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Yeah, its standard. All climbers are taught that way. Very few who use a real thin pull cord might use some type of block but its rare.

Look at any instructional "how to climb" book and you'll see rappelling defined as using two strands.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Another questions, from what I hear most climbers are using some sort of an atc? When rappeling down and cleaning gear how are they tying off?

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Yeah, ATC type device. Almost exclusively. Except folks who use only a gri gri for single pitch stuff sports type climbing (although rare they wouldn't have an ATC too).

They typically don't tie off at all. Just stop the rappel with a brake hand, pluck the gear with the other hand, and they're off.

Very very rarely do climbers tie off to retrieve gear on rappel. If they do, they usually just use a leg wrap and in some cases might use a body wrap or tie off their rappel/belay device.

Edit to add: one of my main partners makes a point of loading up and stopping on his autoblock so climbers use that as a method to stop on rappel too. I'm convinced he mostly does it to show me that I should be using one too! Pretty funny. But, super effective and easy to stop and go.

Usually, there's enough friction with a fat single climbing rope that just locking off a rappel with the brake hand works fine for even extended periods of time.

This single rope rappelling thing that canyoneers use is pretty interesting. Its probably the single technique that twists climber's heads up a bit. And, when folks don't rig for contingency, then some of us fail to understand why rappel single at all, when you have plenty of fat rope available.

I guess I've harped on this enough, but...look at the number of accidents related to not being able to control a single rope rappel...could be the #1 cause of canyon accidents?

Anyhoo, advantages and disadvantages to both.

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by moab mark

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

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I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

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I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

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I like your idea. I'd wager its a bit faster than the options I presented, I'll give it some practice.

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?

Brian,

Just my thoughts on rappeling single. If we were rappeling double all the time we would need to haul more rope in case we had a problem. Unable to use the pull side for rescue etc?
Thanks for the climbing responses.
Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?

Brian,

Just my thoughts on rappeling single. If we were rappeling double all the time we would need to haul more rope in case we had a problem. Unable to use the pull side for rescue etc?
Thanks for the climbing responses.
Mark

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oldno...

i agree with you that remote should be considered first. somewhere along the way i got it in my head that this thread was about pickoffs, hence i went off in an awkward direction on first post. i've done a lot of "remote" rescues (mostly lowers, some hauls) but never a pickoff or the like. in the stuck body parts scenario, I think it would be nice to get to the victim quickly and alleviate pain/suffering if possible. Psychologically, being lowered or hauled out of a bad situation is tough (but often necessary).


<aside>
Me and my buddy Roger were first responders to a pit rescue in TN once...some non-local guy had rapped 150' down a 300' waterfall pit (in-cave) and was unable to continue up or down. Since he'd been hanging there for awhile in 54

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?

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Are you counting a Prusik (or other friction hitch) as a "rope grab"?

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?
Mark

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I'd be interested in learning this as well. I'd like to learn Tom's method, I think he says 30 sec to covert to lower. That'd be good to have in the bag.

Looking at the situation right now I can come up with throwing some new webbing up, rigging the rope behind the block with contingency, cutting the sling with biner block, and lower. But that involves cutting - outside the scenario rules.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?

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I'm guessing your talking about removing the biner to lower?
If that is the case, don't rig with a static biner block, use a dynamic fig 8 block. One can be rigged faster than a properly dressed biner block and you have a contingency system. I don't think the weight or bulk argument holds any water when you compare a standard fig. 8 vs. say a William's carabiner.

Otherwise back to your biner block--seem's you need some type of grab. First you have to haul to release the biner from the rapide.