Zion Permit System

Two years ago, we had made the commitment to the trail to the Subway early in the morning. As we hiked along, we were chatting and laughing as we moved across the slick rock and dropped down into the valley - and I swear to gawd - a range jumped out from under a bush and blocked the trail. I was in the front of the group - he scared the crap out of me! I think I scared him when I screamed!

He wanted to see the permit - gave me crap for having a permit for 8 and only having 6 in the group. I explained that we did not know the the other two were not going to show until, they did not show......I got the lecture about how two more people could have enjoyed the canyon if I had been more considerate.

Instead of hiding behind bushes etc. - station someone at the entrance, check all permits, call in the no shows and then leave me alone!

Hiding in a bush???? :ghost: :roll: :nono: Amazing.....

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

I've heard rumors of canyons in zion that are supposedly "heaps quality" - and I'm not suggesting anyone ever mention these in public so we can all suddenly stand in line to get into them - but if someone wanted to do one, could you even get a permit for one?

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If there was such a canyon.... the rule would be.... don't let the rangers know about it or they will start requiring a permit to descend it...... It's pretty simple really..... if the rangers don't know about it they don't patrol it and they don't ask for permits.

On anther note.... you can ask for a permit for any canyon or area and the rangers will be happy to take your money and issue you a permit. Zion issues quite a few permits for Fat Man's Misery, even though a permit is not required as the canyon is outside the park. I jumped Ranger Ray about that one day and his response was something like "yeah, we know you don't need one but we like to keep track of who is going where".

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Hiding in a bush???? :ghost: :roll: :nono: Amazing.....

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That's how I met rangerette Cindy Purcell the first time.... she jumped out from behind a bush in Mystery and scared the shit out of me.....


:eek1:

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Originally Posted by Felicia

He wanted to see the permit - gave me crap for having a permit for 8 and only having 6 in the group. I explained that we did not know the the other two were not going to show until, they did not show......I got the lecture about how two more people could have enjoyed the canyon if I had been more considerate.

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If they split the "from the top" and "from the bottom" permits up and allowed 18 from the top per day they could still allow about 40 from the bottom no problem. That would be a net difference of 8 per day in their quota (58 more) - which would allow up to 2,920 more people per year to "enjoy the canyon" or up to 14,600 over a 5 year period.

Although I'm guessing if they split permits like that the 'from the top' would be less popular and people might be get those once the "from the bottom" ones ran out and would get themselves in a bad situation.

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That's how I met rangerette Cindy Purcell the first time.... she jumped out from behind a bush in Mystery and scared the shit out of me.....

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Was her gun drawn? :2gun: She isn't at Zion any more is she?

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If there was such a canyon.... the rule would be.... don't let the rangers know about it or they will start requiring a permit to descend it...... It's pretty simple really..... if the rangers don't know about it they don't patrol it and they don't ask for permits.

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What about canyons like icebox that are way out of the way? more people do Keyhole in a day than do icebox in a year I'm guessing...

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On anther note.... you can ask for a permit for any canyon or area and the rangers will be happy to take your money and issue you a permit. Zion issues quite a few permits for Fat Man's Misery, even though a permit is not required as the canyon is outside the park. I jumped Ranger Ray about that one day and his response was something like "yeah, we know you don't need one but we like to keep track of who is going where".

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Yeah, I think that is funny of them. I wonder if you can ask for a permit for a group size of 100 for Fat Mans Misery and see what they say - since it's not like they have any control over group size... etc.

I also wonder - if you are paying for a Misery permit - and someone had a freak accident and needed SAR - It wouldn't be Zion's SAR team would it? even with Englestead (which you have to get a zion permit for) doesn't the county SAR deal with it since the technical part is outside the park?

So for Fat Mans Misery - they really aren't giving you anything but a print out for your money - since it's not like you are even buying your chance at a Zion-lead rescue or anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

I also wonder - if you are paying for a Misery permit - and someone had a freak accident and needed SAR - It wouldn't be Zion's SAR team would it? even with Englestead (which you have to get a zion permit for) doesn't the county SAR deal with it since the technical part is outside the park?

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now that's a good question. Property is such a big-deal. I use to work for the BLM in St. George and you would jump through so many hoops trying to put out a fire on private, or state land. IE There is a fire on State Land, not BLM, you then have to call the State asking for permission and how much money they will allocate to fighting the fire. If none, burn it all and no suppression, until it hits BLM land. If there's State approval, they will tell you whether you can bring in heavy machinery or just hand crews to fight the fire, or you can put out the fire and not be fully compensated for your fight. Kinda strange... Maybe they have changed it now.

But back to your question - I would guess Zion (probably 1st to be notified of the incident) would just redirect it to the County and thus Zion can save on resources, but then again, its human life we are talking about.

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Originally Posted by jhillock

My group had a recent unpleasant run in with the park rangers about a month ago just after we had completed The Subway. We did the hike from the top down leaving one car at the bottom and taking two cars up to the top. There were 6 of us in our group.

The first 4 of us had just finished the hike out and reached our car in the parking lot. We were in the process of taking off our backpacks and shoes when a ranger pulled in got out of his truck and came right to us. He asked to see our permit and I very politely pulled it out and gave it to him. He then went on his way and it was no big deal at this point. After the ranger got done checking all the cars in the lot and was getting back in his SUV the other two straglers of our group came strolling down the trail to the parking lot. The ranger jumped out of his car and headed toward them. At this point I yelled, "Its cool they are with us" but the ranger asked to see our permit again...kind of a pain in the A#@ but no big deal, so I showed him the permit again.

By this time the 4 of us that were waiting at the top were sitting on our cooler in the shade drinking a celebritory beer as we waited for our other two hikers to arrive. After the ranger checked our permit for the second time he noticed us drinking beers and now said that he was going to need to see all of our ID's. WHO THE HELL CARRIES THEIR ID THROUGH THE SUBWAY or any other canyon for that matter?? I had my ID because my car was at the bottom but no one else had their ID's. I thought he would check my ID and see that I was 26 and give the rest in our group the benefit of the doubt on being over 21....everyone who was drinking a beer was 25 or older. Nope, the ranger pulled out a pen and paper and took down everyones information and told us to wait there until he had ran all of our info. This took him about 10 or 15 minutes to do, which sucked because by this point we were all done with our beers and ready to hit the road back to our cars at the top. He finally came back and said we were all good, but he then hounded us about not driving if we had been drinking. Two guys in our group don't drink so we told him they would be driving to get our car at the top. Problem is we had two cars at the top so one of us that had had ONE DAMN BEER was going to have to drive a car down....not a big deal it was one utah strength beer.

That ranger finally left us alone, but by the time we had loaded up the gear in the car and the 3 people headed up to get the cars were getting ready to pull out another ranger pulled in and made us show him our permit once again!!! After this harassment they were finally able to pull out and go get the cars at the top.

After sitting at the bottom for about 15 or 20 mins two of our cars finally pulled into the parking lot. We asked where the third car was and they said the ranger that had first talked to us, asked to see our permit twice, and then harassed us about the beer had passed them on their way down and flipped around and pulled over the guy that had had the one beer. 20 minutes later the third car finally pulled into the parking lot. He said the ranger had made him do a complete field sobriety test, and then breathalized him. He passed everything with flying colors.

This was a shitty way to end a great day of hiking the subway. The rangers treated us like criminals from the moment they encountered us, and we had done nothing wrong. We had drove down and gotten the permit just before the permit desk closed the night before our trip(very inconvienent), we carried it with us throught the canyon, and showed it to them 3 damn times.

Not fun, but we didn't let it ruin our day....still had a great time in the subway. Sorry for the rant.

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Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale UT 84767

and, your congressman

T :moses:

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

And I forgot to mention...Bonnie didn't stop to check our permit...she just noticed that I was with a group of folks and I hollered to her. She stopped to see how we were. I'm guessing that you've had some bad experiences? So sorry that this may be the case and hope one day you may be less harsh on yourself Scott.

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Harsh on myself???? :haha: That comment rubs me wrong. Here is why. I am sure Bonnie is a great person. I don't hate anyone and I have always tried to be polite, sometimes direct but never disrespectful to the rangers. I know they have a job and a difficult one at that. Bad experience you ask? Yes. I have moaned about a couple before on this site and the Yahoo site. Have I ever been cited? NO. Have I ever been busted for doing anything wrong in Zion? NO. The most recent bad experience was a result of some junior detectives trying to put two and two together and come up with six. The logic behind them stopping me and getting on me was because of the town I live in and the fact that others from my town, not related to me/ my group, were in the Subway on the same day. I knew them but I was not part of them. I didn't hike with them nor did I drive with them. So, no, if you were inferring with your last comment that I have been in trouble, that is not correct. No need to be harsh on myself as I have done nothing wrong. No guilt, therefore no reason to be harsh on "myself". It is simply the system and the enforcement of it that drives me nuts. Yes, I am very critical or harsh on the system.

Now Bo, I respect you immensely. I admire your SAR experiences. I want to buy stuff from your store. I have thanked you for what you do a couple of times before and I thank you again now. THANKS BO. I mean that sincerely. But you have to understand that you are different from me, Joe Mapleton, when it comes to the Park service. The inference and the assumptions of the rangers when they come in contact with you and me is different. Sorry to rant and derail the thread (split it??) but you kinda called me out and you also defended the system. I think differently about the system. Friends? :2thumbs:

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Now I must offer my sincere apologies. It's very easy for me to see what I believe is a blatant attack directed at park staff most likely because of my somewhat unique relationship within Zion National Park. It is easy for me to be one-sided. I am truly interested to know what others experiences are within the park. I love to hear all of the "positive" stories, but when it becomes "negative", up comes my guard. I too can see by virtue of some experiences that the permit system can and has caused grief. I reflect to my earlier days before I became a volunteer-in-park "VIP". Hiking required no permits. There was no problem. Climbing the big walls required no permit (unless bivying). There wasn't and still isn't a problem.
After attending (being invited) to several Backcountry Planning sessions that were solicited as "public input sessions" before and during the presented Backcountry Resource Management Planning Phase, I could see that there were going to be changes that would require concessions from most all of the user groups. During the meetings strong opinions were voiced. Yes...many groups felt betrayed, but others saw the need for changes. Are "canyoneers" being singled out ? Maybe?

I still take the stance that "Canyons" need to be restricted. I guess that I jumped on board the "Canyoneering" scene "Rap and Swim Kiddies" of Zion NP a bit before "Canyoneering" was stigmatized as the adventure activity that it now holds. I enjoyed most of the "Zion Classics" by myself before many even knew that a rope and harness would allow you to explore their depths. No, I'm not a pioneer, nor was I the first to realize this possibility, but I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in visitation by impact and confrontation. It hasn't detracted in my interest for hiking in ZNP, but I certainly have seen how it can become an inconvenience both to time restraints and personal safety. I do see flaws with the current permitting process, but I also believe that eliminating a permit system would create a much compounded problem now and in the future. I look at the recent accidents occuring in canyons such as Englestead as an example. It seems to me that more folks are hopping on board the "canyoneering scene" ill prepared? Englestead? Super long drop or multi-pitch rappel and people are showing no fear? Mystery? Dang...what an easy canyon or so supposed; bottlenecking with 100 new "canyoneers on a busy saturday? It's just hard for me to see what I still consider a "Zion Classic" turn into a social playground?

I cannot make excuses for the "sour experiences" or "unpleasant encounters" others may have had, but can only hope that these events are minimal and everyone can drive home exhausted with a grin on their faces.

Again, I apologize if I seem naive and defensive, but I do take stance in what I believe as a system that acts as the lesser of evils.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Now I must offer my sincere apologies. It's very easy for me to see what I believe is a blatant attack directed at park staff most likely because of my somewhat unique relationship within Zion National Park. It is easy for me to be one-sided. I am truly interested to know what others experiences are within the park. I love to hear all of the "positive" stories, but when it becomes "negative", up comes my guard. I too can see by virtue of some experiences that the permit system can and has caused grief. I reflect to my earlier days before I became a volunteer-in-park "VIP". Hiking required no permits. There was no problem. Climbing the big walls required no permit (unless bivying). There wasn't and still isn't a problem.
After attending (being invited) to several Backcountry Planning sessions that were solicited as "public input sessions" before and during the presented Backcountry Resource Management Planning Phase, I could see that there were going to be changes that would require concessions from most all of the user groups. During the meetings strong opinions were voiced. Yes...many groups felt betrayed, but others saw the need for changes. Are "canyoneers" being singled out ? Maybe?

I still take the stance that "Canyons" need to be restricted. I guess that I jumped on board the "Canyoneering" scene "Rap and Swim Kiddies" of Zion NP a bit before "Canyoneering" was stigmatized as the adventure activity that it now holds. I enjoyed most of the "Zion Classics" by myself before many even knew that a rope and harness would allow you to explore their depths. No, I'm not a pioneer, nor was I the first to realize this possibility, but I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in visitation by impact and confrontation. It hasn't detracted in my interest for hiking in ZNP, but I certainly have seen how it can become an inconvenience both to time restraints and personal safety. I do see flaws with the current permitting process, but I also believe that eliminating a permit system would create a much compounded problem now and in the future. I look at the recent accidents occuring in canyons such as Englestead as an example. It seems to me that more folks are hopping on board the "canyoneering scene" ill prepared? Englestead? Super long drop or multi-pitch rappel and people are showing no fear? Mystery? Dang...what an easy canyon or so supposed; bottlenecking with 100 new "canyoneers on a busy saturday? It's just hard for me to see what I still consider a "Zion Classic" turn into a social playground?

I cannot make excuses for the "sour experiences" or "unpleasant encounters" others may have had, but can only hope that these events are minimal and everyone can drive home exhausted with a grin on their faces.

Again, I apologize if I seem naive and defensive, but I do take stance in what I believe as a system that acts as the lesser of evils.

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And... it is not a simple question of "This Permit System" or "NO Permit System". The system we have is big and intrusive and cantankerous- and unnecessary. A much smaller system with a lighter intrusion on the canyoneering experience could fulfill all the objectives of the Park managment.

more: http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/

Tom

Bo, you have never really had to deal with the permit system on the same level as the rest of us. You are never part of the quota restrictions so you are never denied a canyon. And picking up a permit for you normally consists of calling the backcountry desk and leaving a hand written note on your dashboard..... the main reason you stop by the VC at all is so you can bullshit with your buddies..... Yeah, I can see how the current permit system does not inconvenience you..... I'd probably be pretty happy with the system if the rules were the same for me.

And I'm not bitch that SAR and park employees get special treatment, its just part of the game.... but I find it interesting that you defend a system that you have never had to deal with like the rest of us tourists....

Someone like you is actually part of the problem.... you carry some weight with the Zion rangers.... so they hear you say "the system is not bad" and they listen.... never really noticing that your have never dealt with the "real" permit system.... Someone like you could also be a help... listen to what we are saying..... not one of us "tourists" is happy with the system. That is the message the park needs to hear.... What you say to the park is worth at least 10 of what I say to the park....

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Bo, you have never really had to deal with the permit system on the same level as the rest of us. You are never part of the quota restrictions so you are never denied a canyon. And picking up a permit for you normally consists of calling the backcountry desk and leaving a hand written note on your dashboard..... the main reason you stop by the VC at all is so you can bullshit with your buddies..... Yeah, I can see how the current permit system does not inconvenience you..... I'd probably be pretty happy with the system if the rules were the same for me.

And I'm not bitch that SAR and park employees get special treatment, its just part of the game.... but I find it interesting that you defend a system that you have never had to deal with like the rest of us tourists....

Someone like you is actually part of the problem.... you carry some weight with the Zion rangers.... so they hear you say "the system is not bad" and they listen.... never really noticing that your have never dealt with the "real" permit system.... Someone like you could also be a help... listen to what we are saying..... not one of us "tourists" is happy with the system. That is the message the park needs to hear....

:cool2:

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I'm not sure that is really fair to Bo, Mr. Ice, but...

I, also, do not really have much problems with the permit system, personally. I rarely do the popular canyons, and when I do, I have plenty of choices over which ones I do. I live nearby, so I can spend 2 hours and go get a permit if I REALLY need to. I do not get special treatment, but I know more about the park than most, so I can meet my expectations by adjusting them to fit what I know I can get...

My issues are philosophical and political. Wilderness is about freedom. The current over-bearing permit system is against that principal and - the biggest beef - is unnecessary and counterproductive.

I encourage people to complain about the permit system often and loudly, but ONLY to the Superintendents office. Not to the backcountry desk people, and not to the LE rangers. These people are doing their jobs as set out by their supervisors. Complain to the supervisors.

Tom :moses:

You can bet your ass if I drove all the way down to Zion to do Heaps or any other canyon I had planned out in advance and the permits were taken... I"d have poached the muthaeffa and wiped my ass with the ticket if issued one. Damn I hate bureaucratic asshats.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Bo, you have never really had to deal with the permit system on the same level as the rest of us. You are never part of the quota restrictions so you are never denied a canyon. And picking up a permit for you normally consists of calling the backcountry desk and leaving a hand written note on your dashboard..... the main reason you stop by the VC at all is so you can bullshit with your buddies..... Yeah, I can see how the current permit system does not inconvenience you..... I'd probably be pretty happy with the system if the rules were the same for me.

And I'm not bitch that SAR and park employees get special treatment, its just part of the game.... but I find it interesting that you defend a system that you have never had to deal with like the rest of us tourists....

Someone like you is actually part of the problem.... you carry some weight with the Zion rangers.... so they hear you say "the system is not bad" and they listen.... never really noticing that your have never dealt with the "real" permit system.... Someone like you could also be a help... listen to what we are saying..... not one of us "tourists" is happy with the system. That is the message the park needs to hear.... What you say to the park is worth at least 10 of what I say to the park....

:cool2:

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Quite contrary to what you hear or believe, I have had to deal with the Zion permit system. It has been in recent years that the park has afforded me the opportunity of hiking "permitted" canyons with the understanding that I would not be drawing from the existing use limits. I like to believe that in some way I have earned that token of appreciation, and they (the park staff) realize that having someone that is familiar with the canyons, practiced in the descent of the canyons, and the fact that they (the park) have invested a lot of time and money training me in NPS Rescue protocol and techniques, that maybe I might continue to be an asset to them when needed?

I defend the system because I have seen canyons in the park in my earlier days go from virtually no visitation and very little impact to major "trade routes" with high visitation and very high impact. I admit...I was and am part of that visitation and impact. I must admit that I preffered earlier days of my visitation when I had more of the first descent, backcountry feel even if I wasn't close to being the first descencionist. I did see the canyons grow in popularity before restrictions were ever placed on them. There wasn't a trail in Left Fork. There wasn't a trail in Right Fork. There wasn't a trail in Mystery. There wasn't a trail in Behunin. There wasn't a trail in Heaps. so on, so on, so on...... I believe that without a limitation in these now "trade routes" that impact would deter from anyones experience. Whether by trash, social trails, crowding and noise or all of the above, and what I seem to hear is that people are desiring a "backcountry" experience without interference from beaurocracy. I ask....who is going to prevent overuse and trashing of the canyons that we all seem to admire? Shane...have you been involved in any NP/Access Fund cleanup days in Zion? I have and have worn rubber gloves and picked up toilet paper, dirty underwear, general garbage, and sanded graffiti off the walls in the Narrows. I took a group through the Subway on my birthday 2 years ago ( I had never asked the park for a permit for 12 before) and said that I would be glad to take gloves and a trash sack and cleanup on the way. Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail. I don't pat myself on the back..I just hope that the next party through might appreciate that they didn't have to step in shit on a hike that they had waited so long to experience by dealing with a "crappy" permit system. No...I side with permits not with bias of special treatment, I agree because I see what I see. I have dealt with permits all of my life. Some I agree with, some I don't. I still abide by them or I don't visit. Snow Canyon SP has much more rigid restrictions than Zion will ever see. I don't go there as often as I did in earlier days, but when I do I abide by their restrictions.

I carry exactly the same weight as you when it comes to the permit system. I have expressed my understanding and concern of the dissatisfaction there currently is with the permit system to Ray on numerous occasions. He DOES understand that there are problems. He hasn't felt it necessary to explain to me what they plan to do about it if anything at all. On one occasion several years ago I asked to hike Mystery Canyon when the water was above what they had deemed safe in the Narrows. I believe that the max allowed at that time was 120cfs? Tanya and I hiked Mystery when the river was at I believe 170cfs. I reported to Ray that I felt it safe at this level. He didn't agree, but I did see that with some thought he decided that "canyoneers" that had the ability to descend Mystery or Imlay, would certainly have the experience to handle 140cfs. Did he go out on a limb? I have no idea? It seems to me that the "experienced kayakers" this year got in trouble at just over 150cfs? Where does he draw the line?

I am a volunteer in Zion and I know they appreciate what I have done for them in the past, but that is all. Yes they give me some leeway that the "general public" doesn't enjoy, and I'm very grateful for this, but keep in mind that I understand and have dealt with those same problems you deal with. I can only hope that someday a happy solution might come about that works for all.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

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Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

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Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:

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Russell Gulch??? No that scary of a canyon. :ne_nau:

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6z-PiMvacA

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6z-PiMvacA

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There is a better way:
http://bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17785

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

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Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:

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:roflol: No way man! A few rinses in the first pool and a perfect fit now!

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Originally Posted by Reedus

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Just after the slab bowl in Russell Gulch I picked up a pair of adult underwear that apparently the guy had shit himself and left in the middle of the trail.

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Can I get those back, by the way? I believe my mom sewed my name and phone number in the elastic on them? :fakelaugh: :lol2:

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Russell Gulch??? No that scary of a canyon. :ne_nau:

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I think it was the STEEP bowl from the top of the Hoodoo that made him Poopoo! :haha:

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Just got back from the backcountry desk today - we had members of our group waiting in line from 3 this morning. We were not the first in line, there was one guy in front of us who'd been waiting from 11:30 last night in order to get a Subway permit. We were wanting a permit for Mystery tomorrow, which we got. This was the line just before the desk opened (I videoed it on my phone). Can't help but thinking there must be a better way:

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I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I agree...there must be a better way? I waited sunday for over 20 minutes for my Pine Creek Permit with just 2 groups in front of me and 2 windows open? Maybe to make all the permits available online only? At least there would be no waiting at the window anymore.

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Or perhaps allocate the walk-ins for The Subway and Mystery with a daily lottery, drawn at 5pm the day before? That would eliminate the whole "up at Stupid O'Clock" thing in one fell swoop.