Zion Rappel Accident

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Gloves may have prevented the blisters on his fingers, but unlikely they would have stopped him from falling. Key point is he should have rigged more friction for such a long rappel on 8mm rope.

Autoblock = false sense of security.

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I dunno. From this picture, almost looks thicker than 8mm? I'm comparing the width of the rope to the width of his thumb...

http://media.bonnint.net/slc/1216/121614/12161487.jpg

I think an autoblock, properly deployed, can be pretty useful.

http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1803.jpg

One of my main climbing partners (see above) uses one all the time. He can stop and start on a rappel on a dime, with no effort. Of course, its usually on double ropes...

Couple of comments...I can't imagine dropping into Englestead on a single 8mm rope, on a single ATC, and not rigging for additional friction. The very idear is frightening. Glove or not (I didn't use a glove on that or any of the times I've done Heaps). Two ATCs, one above the other: smooth as silk.

Knot in the rope? I can't imagine deploying rope for a long rappel like that and having a knot in the rope. Should be carefully lowering the rope, or, using a rope bag? Yikes. It can be pretty darn scary to stop on a super steep rappel to untangle a rope...

Ain't no miracle. Had enough friction from the ATC on the rope to slow him down enough, but, that video is painful to watch.

Take care out there you canyoneering rappellers!

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

One of my main climbing partners (see above) uses one all the time. He can stop and start on a rappel on a dime, with no effort. Of course, its usually on double ropes...

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Your EXPERIENCED partner. My issue is with autoblocks being sold to beginners as a panacea. Emphasis should be on rigging for the correct amount of friction. I am seeing people getting slopping with their friction because they "know" their autoblock will save them if they get it wrong. Nervous beginners are unlikely to let their autoblocks lock up. Instinct says to grab the rope tighter when you lose control.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Knot in the rope? I can't imagine deploying rope for a long rappel like that and having a knot in the rope. Should be carefully lowering the rope, or, using a rope bag? Yikes. It can be pretty darn scary to stop on a super steep rappel to untangle a rope...

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Knot? Or birds nest form a sloppy throw? Either way, sounds like it was the knot that stopped him ?? He should have locked off above the knot/nest to untie/untangle. Would have given him an opportunity to fix his autoblock -- more wraps, tighter wraps, whatever.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Your EXPERIENCED partner. My issue is with autoblocks being sold to beginners as a panacea. Emphasis should be on rigging for the correct amount of friction. I am seeing people getting slopping with their friction because they "know" their autoblock will save them if they get it wrong. Nervous beginners are unlikely to let their autoblocks lock up. Instinct says to grab the rope tighter when you lose control.

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Absolutely. And, he's got his system super dialed. Learned from a long time guide in the French alps (also a fairly well known Petzl guy)...

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Knot? Or birds nest form a sloppy throw? Either way, sounds like it was the knot that stopped him ?? He should have locked off above the knot/nest to untie/untangle. Would have given him an opportunity to fix his autoblock -- more wraps, tighter wraps, whatever.

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He was oughta control, hit the knot/tangle, stopped, undid the knot, and went out of control again? Wow.

I think for most folks, if they've blown their friction, and their autoblock isn't working, they won't be able to "fix" most anything on a really steep rappel, especially on a skinny single rope.

Go for the body wrap around! Get your friction on...

Makes my hands sweaty thinkin' about it...

Cheers, Rich!

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

He was oughta control, hit the knot/tangle, stopped, undid the knot, and went out of control again? Wow.

I think for most folks, if they've blown their friction, and their autoblock isn't working, they won't be able to "fix" most anything on a really steep rappel, especially on a skinny single rope.

Go for the body wrap around! Get your friction on...

Makes my hands sweaty thinkin' about it...

Cheers, Rich!

-Brian in SLC

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Wonder why he thought he would have more control after the knot than he had above it?

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by oldno7

It's all fun and games until someone DIES.

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Philosophic aside: this is always true about everything, even life itself.

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Originally Posted by Richard Barron

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Originally Posted by oldno7

It's all fun and games until someone DIES.

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Philosophic aside: this is always true about everything, even life itself.

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So if next weekend there happens to be a couple of bogleyites get killed it's o.k.?
And "maybe" it could have been prevented, with a little training, but no need to mention it. It was just their time. c'est la vie................

:roll: I think Richard is just pointing out there is danger in everything we do.....

At some point in life people have to cut the apron strings and actually experiance the adventure.

I don't think there is a soul on this forum who considers training a bad thing..... but sooner or later you have to get off the porch and run with the big dogs..... or you could visit Disneyland instead....

:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

:roll: I think Richard is just pointing out there is danger in everything we do.....

At some point in life people have to cut the apron strings and actually experiance the adventure.

I don't think there is a soul on this forum who considers training a bad thing..... but sooner or later you have to get off the porch and run with the big dogs..... or you could visit Disneyland instead....

:popcorn:

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And I'm not disputing that........
It's all about calculating risk vs, unnecessary risk.
Do we toss the keys to our kids when they're 16 and say, have a great night out on State street. Or do they go through a drivers ed program and learn about what they are doing, then casually sneak down to State street?
I'll be done, sorry for the break in fun.
Think I'll head to disneyland next weekend :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Do we toss the keys to our kids when they're 16 and say, have a great night out on State street. Or do they go through a drivers ed program and learn about what they are doing, then casually sneak down to State street?

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Bad example.... drivers ed in the US is probably the biggest joke I know of.....

There is no way in hell my kids are getting the keys to the car until after they have been through a real driving school and completed both a Highway Safety and High Proformace class.... but after the class I'll turn them loose....

FWIW: Miller Motorspors Park teaches them in Salt Lake and Las Vegas Motor Speedway teaches them in Vegas.


:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Do we toss the keys to our kids when they're 16 and say, have a great night out on State street. Or do they go through a drivers ed program and learn about what they are doing, then casually sneak down to State street?

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Bad example....

There is no way in hell my kids are getting the keys to the car until after they have been through a real driving school and completed both a Highway Safety and High Proformace class.... but after the class I'll turn them loose....



:cool2:

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My job is done here............ :haha:

I'm going to be in Englestead next Friday for Bogleyfest. We've already done some planning and training for this canyon but we've gone over our plan again this morning because of this.
We'll still do the canyon but it sure gets a person thinking...

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Originally Posted by Don

I'm going to be in Englestead next Friday for Bogleyfest. We've already done some planning and training for this canyon but we've gone over our plan again this morning because of this.
We'll still do the canyon but it sure gets a person thinking...

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And what is your plan???

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

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Oh, no, not the dreaded, don't say it, double rope rappel?

Pad that edge well would be a decent start...

Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by oldno7

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Originally Posted by Richard Barron

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Originally Posted by oldno7

It's all fun and games until someone DIES.

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Philosophic aside: this is always true about everything, even life itself.

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So if next weekend there happens to be a couple of bogleyites get killed it's o.k.?
And "maybe" it could have been prevented, with a little training, but no need to mention it. It was just their time. c'est la vie................

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That is so NOT what I meant.

Sorry I even joined the conversation.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by Don

I'm going to be in Englestead next Friday for Bogleyfest. We've already done some planning and training for this canyon but we've gone over our plan again this morning because of this.
We'll still do the canyon but it sure gets a person thinking...

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And what is your plan???

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

Tom

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Not having the 300' rope we were going to stage it. Are your ropes available next Friday? Let me talk to Josh but we might take you up on that...

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Originally Posted by Don

Not having the 300' rope we were going to stage it.

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Staging Englestead is not that big of deal. For a number a reasons I prefer to stage this start over the 300' direct entry....

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

I have 2 - 300' 9mm ropes which you can use. I plan on using them.

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Oh, no, not the dreaded, don't say it, double rope rappel?
Pad that edge well would be a decent start...
Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

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While getting down 2-9mm static ropes would be a worthy challenge, no... I set two ropes up side by side, and two people can rappel at the same time. Helps to do this at the head of the watercourse, because there is no loose rock there (thus allowing a simultaneous rappel). Also, the 'rescue' line is already set up, if someone should get stuck.

Tom

First time could be an accident, second time proves the guy is not the brightest bulb on the shelf.

Someone said it best.

He got out of control and began falling to his death. By some miracle he got stopped halfway. So what does this dimwit decide to do...free the rope with no hesitation and try the second time to kill himself?

Miracle he survived...some divine power? Not really...just shows at least his rappelling device was rigged properly. I've always wondered how fast you would go if you just let go of the rope. Now I know and it doesn't look like there's too much to be scared of as long as you have a helmet...which after looking at the video again, he didn't.

Did anyone else notice his burns are on the tips of his fingers...if I was falling and grabbing onto the rope I damn well would have my palms scarred for life. (Edit: he was wearing fingerless gloves, so this last statement is not applicable)

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Originally Posted by nonot

Did anyone else notice his burns are on the tips of his fingers...if I was falling and grabbing onto the rope I damn well would have my palms scarred for life.

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Hmmm...

Pretty common, when grabbing for rope, that the fingers take the brunt of it.

http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1804.jpg

Folk who were at the rondy on Crete might remember the above...

-Brian in SLC

This accident has me stumped. Could the camera have played a role in this? Trying to look cool and fast from the top? I gotta tell you I hope I would have had the good sense that IF I were to have lost control and by chance a knot has stuck me, I hope I would have tied off, screamed for help like a girl or something other than lose it again. Also, with the weight of the rope, I have never been able to go fast or anywhere near fast at the start of that rap. :ne_nau: It is the bottom 100 feet that needs my attention on that rap and the Heaps final rap.