Yes, there is a second rope.... at least that is what I understand....Quote:
Originally Posted by davehuth
:popcorn:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
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Yes, there is a second rope.... at least that is what I understand....Quote:
Originally Posted by davehuth
:popcorn:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Right and wrong---- :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by davehuth
I said I could do the rescue with gear, either in my pack or on my harness.
Personally(and those who have done canyons with me will attest) I always carry a 8mm rescue rope in my pack.(mine was 80' until last week) In this scenario, without THAT rope, your options are not very good.
kinda got to follow along quickly, we did start the original thread without an additional rope. I threw in a 100' to up the anty. It's all only an excercise in hoping we can solve a problem in real life as well as we do on the internets.
If we have solutions either way, we all still win. :2thumbs:
Probably just personal preference..... but..... I'm not a big fan of leaving the comfort of the top until I've tried a few simple tactics first..... sliding down to rescue the beautiful woman with your shirt ripping guns is for movie stars... :stud:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Since this was a roost exit rappel I assumed its free handing (can't remember if that was stated). It's hard to work while dangling and spinning in space.
I usually look for the lazy way out first.... :2thumbs:
I know.... not nearly as dramatic but it usually works.... probably what you feel most comfortable with....
:popcorn:
Oops missed that other rope part. Sure makes the scenario easier - which just goes to show us that having that other rope makes a lot of sense just in case...
You could not descend the double strand with a "descending device" with the victims weight on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by davehuth
Jugging up from the bottom is possible but you have to get above the victim to be able to release the rope.(doable, but very advanced)
Wasn't trying to show off :stud:Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I didn't rank my ideas in what I would do first just trying to list as may different ways to solve this problem.
I think we have lot's of valid stuff here.Quote:
Originally Posted by trackrunner
No one can argue that simpler isn't better and theres huge merit to being able to do a remote rescue(up top) vs. a contact rescue(pick-off,etc). No 2 situations could ever be the same, saying there is an order to proceed in, would not be possible.
If the situation had them unconscious or bleeding profusely, getting to them quick would be important.
If it's your Mother in law, watching the bitch dangle awhile deliriously could have benefit. Or in that case, maybe just cut the rope.
I disagree..... if it's one of your smartass buddies the FIRST thing you do is tease him unmerciful and take lots of pictures.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
:five:
1) build a BOMBER anchor.
2) toss the second 100' of rope.
3) rap down with prussiks and enough sling material to rig a chest harness to the vic.
4) when you get next to the victim you can rig a simple chest harness to him. attach a short prussik around both of the ropes above him. clip a biner to the prussik. place a second prussik to the chest harness and attach it with a munter hitch to the biner so that you have a 2:1 and pull him upright and tie it off. put a third prussik on his harness to the rope and then you can get him untangled.
5) a) concious. once the vic is ready you release the tension on the prussik at his waist placing his weight back on the rap device. (you could use another piece of cord to tie into the top prussik and use it as a step in order to release the tension on the waist prussik.) then release just enough tension with the munter at his chest to keep him upright yet still be able to continue the rap with the prussik still attached to the rope.
b) unconcious. once you get the vic upright you tie them into the end of the second rope at his waist and also into the chest harness. you then prussik back up tie them off and then set up a pulley system and raise them up to you or you can set up to lower and then rap down to them.
just a quick idea. should work, might not.
On your 4--I"m thinking the bulk of the weight is on the victims harness, if we set up our haul system using the victims harness first, I'm thinking we'd be ahead. Then attach the improvised chest harness.Quote:
Originally Posted by denaliguide
Keep in mind you have lot's of options for a haul system. I've used the bottom of the victims rope several times(training)If no additional prusics can be found.
5A sounds doable
5B I'd rather put them on my rope at that time and rappel, being able to support an unconscious victim.
Now lets spin this around and try another approach----------
I think we will all agree, no matter what system we used in the double strand scenario, it was complicated and would probably be hard to do no matter what the level of training.
So--this time we walk up to the same anchor, run our rope through the rapide. But this time we only throw down one side, and instead of a biner or knot, we use a figure 8 device as our block.
The same guy goes down and flips upside down on his single strand and somehow becomes stuck.
What does our last guy on top do to overcome this? And what kind of time frame is involved to solve this new dilemma?
Shane said he prefers to do the easiest things first, and I wholeheartedly agree. What present's the easiest rescue, single or double strand?
Simply buy the best book on this "On Rope" North American Vertical Techniques and study and practice the scenarios. Cavers train to self recover from a heel hang or flip upside down and we train down here sometimes with the local SAR for cave rescues.
I like changeovers and on rope transfers. Those are fun and work your brain and flexibility a lot.
See Chap 12 on Vertical skills and rescue training. And Chapt 10 Vertical Potpourri.
It seems to me (I have very limited rescue training) that you should be able to rig a prussic on the weighted rope and attach it to the anchor. Then, assuming you have enough people, or the rappeller is light enough, you could pull them up enough to disengage and remove the figure-8 block. Put them on belay, and lower. Block again (biner, knot block, etc.)and rappel down. You would probably have to leave your rope, but it would be fast and relatively simple...
It's much simpler than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmac
You set the figure 8 block as a contingency anchor first off, release the contingency part of the block and belay from above
It's that easy.............Quote:
Originally Posted by Pubalz
Couldn't take much more than a minute to complete the whole rescue, only it was so easy it doesn't seem like a rescue.
I would change out the word belay for lower though in Daves description.
Release the block and lower........
One thing about actually practicing these techniques (such as in rescue class), is that it reveals which ones work, which ones kinda work, and which ones work in theory but not so hot in the field. I can do a pickoff of someone who outweighs me, I can do a Valdy-slide down a weighted line, etc. etc... but I would convert to a lower and have the guy on the ground in about 30 seconds. Problem solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
With practice, a biner block or a Stone Knot can be converted to a lower quite quickly. What's hard is effecting a rescue, when all your resources are committed below you. Rescue training and practice makes it VERY, VERY CLEAR that rapping double strand is not where you want to be when compost hits the spinning thing. Yes, I have people rap double strand, but I have a rescue rope in my pack, and can convert the double-rap rope to a lower in 30 seconds.
Which is why Lord Gandolf, often referred to as Ice, remains a beginner in my book, because he will be standing at the top scratching his head and trying to figure out what to do, when in essence, with all his resources committed below, he cannot effect rescue.
Tom :moses:
I knew you would be the one to catch my quotation marks around descending device and mention a valdy, still tricky at best.(no need to go there)Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
I made mention of trying remote rescue first and then contact rescue, I think that is important
Double strand is fast, easy and safe...........
So is single strand!!
When you encounter problems on double strand you, or someone in your group and preferably on top, better have their poop in a group.
I believe Tom prefers using a munter to lower, I prefer a fig. 8.
Both work great and have there +/-. The key is being proficient with whichever you choose. If you know neither and this conversation confuses you, no problem, your part of the 90%. Get some training before you kill yourself or someone you care about. You will not learn these things online!
So what's your opinion Tom on the % of competent canyoneers who have an adequate tool box? I said 10%. Shane thinks I'm crazy with that number. For the record, I'd be glad to be in the 90% needing more training.
What say you?
Some food for thought. That only works if you have more rope length than you need for the drop. Which, for the scenario you stated; works fine. However, most of the folks that I know that rap single strand will carry near the same amount of rope as the longest drop; and then have a pull cord tied to it. Thus, a knot is in your way to lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
So, the moral of the story is that if you are going to use a contingency anchor (like should be used in Class C canyons), then it's a different rope length strategy. That, and maybe the folks who only carry enough rope for the drop need to evaluate having a backup safety rope.
Scenarios are always a good thing to think about; and as Tom eluded to, even better to practice...